Yes - I think virtually everyone here has been focused on ingesting the rapamycin orally. It would seem, however, to be potentially beneficial to do both - oral, and topically inside the mouth via some sort of rapamycin toothpaste, mouthwash, floss, etc.
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@KERRY_BELL posted this in another forum, and I thought people here would like to see it:
Im 75 yo., and my gums have not receeded which is usually what happens when your get older. They are no different than when I was 30. Of course, brushing, flossing and Rapamycin weekly. I truly believe rapa has helped.
[been taking rapamycin for] 5 years, March 2017. Dr. Greens 2nd. patient.
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Wouldn’t transcutol still be the best agent to dissolve the rapamycin in?
I have transcutol, and used it with to make the rapamycin skin cream I tried for 6 months (minor improvement, not sure if its worth it), but it also seems like it could be used for topical application on the inside of the mouth.
Does anyone here have experience with DSMO? I’ve not tried it, but have heard that it may have some unenjoyable smell or something like that.
DMSO The perfect solvent.
It will carry any compound dissolved through skin into blood stream and or into cells.
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Joseph - have you used DSMO before? What for, and are there any downsides from what you’ve heard?
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Yes, both topical and intravenous.
Attached is a gift.
Dimethyl Sulfoxide (DMSO) in Trauma and Disease
dimethyl-sulfoxide-dmso-in-trauma-and-disease-2015 (1).pdf (3.6 MB)
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Perio disease will be evaluated 2 ways. Radiographically (x-rays) and clinically (probing depths). A reduction in pocket depth would be a start and then the arrest of bone loss would be the other. I doubt we’d see any regeneration of alveolar bone but sometimes magical things happen.
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Didn’t we see bone regeneration here, in this past study with rapamycin?
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Recession isn’t always perio disease related. In fact it’s usually a result of bruxism. In perio disease you don’t usually get recession of the gums, just recession of the bone which then results in increased pocket depths.
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It depends if they were measuring pocket depths (vertical bone loss) or bone heights (horizontal bone loss). You can get bone regeneration of pockets just by treating the infecting bacteria, but to date, as far as I’ve seen, horizontal bone loss is permanent unless you add it surgically and even then it’s difficult to get more than a millimeter or two. If rapamycin could regenerate horizontal bone loss then that would indeed be a huge game changer.
When I look at that CT I see bone regeneration up to the level of the most coronal point of bone. But not much beyond. So to me that’s not enough to say it regenerates horizontal bone loss. It looks to me like it regenerates pockets. But maybe they need to treat for longer.
One of the treatments for horizontal bone loss is called a vertically repositioned flap. Basically you reposition the gums down closer to the bone level to reduce pockets. It’s really done because there’s no hope for increasing horizontal bone once it’s gone.
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Don’t get me wrong. If we could regenerate vertical bone and also surgically reduce pocket depths before the periodontitis is too advanced (teeth are mobile) then we could help a lot of people keep their teeth longer and probably as a result live longer lives.
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Just spitballing, but a version of a whitening tray with a Rapamycin/DMSO based viscous mix seems the most logical option for home use. Of course, unlike whitening products, you want the product on your gums.
Anyone have any learned guess as to how often, and for how long, you’d need to do this? If it were 1-2x/week for 30-60 minutes, that would be an easy do for most everyone as long as the mixture doesn’t irritate (no idea whether DMSO would irritate in this scenario).
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New research related to this research:
Full Paper Here:
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autophagy functioned as a defender to protect host cells against P. gingivalis
To the extent that rapamycin penetrates and is absorbed when applied to the gums, I expect that the induction of autophagy and reduction of inflammation would be greater than for oral ingested rapamycin.
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I’m not experienced with these - but yes, that would seem to work and/or with toothpaste with rapamycin in it. Perhaps also put the toothpaste in the tray.
Nobody knows the duration/dose/response levels - thats why the research is being done.
Given what we saw in another thread on topical rapamycin and hair regrowth, I think periodontal delivery is well worth pursuing.
@DyingSucks idea of using a delivery vehicle like DSMO/Rapamycin (or other safe excipient) and whitening tray moulded teeth overlays is eminently doable. I have an old tray set from a previous conventional intervention, might explore this. Perhaps use the same formulation for hair and teeth!
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The reason you need a professional cleaning if you have pockets >3mm is because local medication cannot penetrate deeper than that. For local treatment of pockets there are special chips that need to be deposited in the pocket
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Not an expert, but I don’t touch teeth whitening (especially OTC) due to some unknowns. I also don’t touch dental whitening. I’ll happily accept that I’ll have some staining - has nothing to do with teeth health. If anything, the polyphenols that stain decrease dental plaque accumulation so I can avoid going to the dentists who X-ray way more than needed (I personally only go every 2 years based on individual risk factors).
Every single dentist I’ve been to so far won’t listen to American Thyroid Assn professional guidelines which shows substantial thyroid cancer risks. (There are other risks, this is just the most obvious one). Therefore, I’m not convinced many dentists really care about my health or even know about these issues, rather than just trying to bill more to justify their equipment purchases.
AFAIK, the effects on your enamel are cumulative, even with dental supervision. Can’t say for sure it would be mitigated by only doing it every few years. Perhaps someone can chine in.
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“From a formulation standpoint, DMSO viscosity is similar to water and DMSO can serve as a way to lower formulation viscosity.
The addition of traditional thickening agents (Carbopol®, Klucel®, Methocel®, Tylose®) can be a way to increase DMSO viscosity allowing for optimally designed dosage forms.”
https://www.gaylordchemical.com/markets/pharmaceuticals/
Any other thoughts vehicle and thickening agents?
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