If someone catches a virus or gets sick is it best to skip to stop rapamycin until you get better or keep going? (weekly dosing).
Considering viral persistence, does weekly rapamycin inhibit mtorc2 even minimally in the first few days after dosing?
1 Like
Many of us pause the rapamycin if we are sick. See these past discussions:
- Rapamycin use when sick with infection
- Can I give my dog Rapamycin while he’s sick?
- Would you take rapamycin if you have the common cold?
- Effect on immune system, common cold
- Dosing Rapamycin and Infection Concerns
- Is it wise to hold off on taking Rapamycin if I have a common cold?
- Stopping Rapamycin Before Exposure to Bacteria
- Would you take rapamycin if you have the common cold?
- Rapamycin use during cold / flu season?
On the issue of mTORC2 inhibition, everything I’ve read on this topic suggests that you get mTORC2 inhibition if you take higher doses of rapamycin on an ongoing basis over a longer period of time. I’ve not seen a quoted dose and time period defined exactly; and its likely with significant individual variation.
So - it would depend on your dose level and frequency. Probably really only able to get an idea of this if you’re measuring blood sirolimus levels.
See this thread: How to get a Rapamycin (sirolimus) Blood Level Test
4 Likes
Thanks, the way I understand it is that if the trough level does not fall low enough before the next weekly dose then mtorc2 will be suppressed more often than not. Even on doses lower than 6mg
I seem to have a dormant virus because when i dose sirolimus I get light ‘virus’ symptoms the next day or two even on days where i tried not going outside, so I am assuming it is a dormant virus as i get a similar feeling when i get the cold. I am going to skip rapamycin for a few weeks and run some antiviral herbs (like olive leaf, NAC, baicalin) in the meantime and see how it goes
2 Likes
When I take rapamycin, within a few hours I start to feel an unusual tiredness which could be similar to the feeling of an oncoming cold. I wonder if you aren’t just feeling the rapamycin. Some people get energized but others feel tired. I take it before sleep to capitalize on the tiredness effect.
Good luck.
3 Likes
@Joseph_Lavelle
Before I started rapamycin for the first time 3 weeks prior to that I got a really bad virus and havent felt that ill in like 10 years. I waited a few weeks before taking my first dose of rapamycin but It might have been better to wait even longer (like a month or two) as even though I felt completely better when starting rapamycin the virus must have still been active.
Now when I take the weekly doses on the second day I feel the general feeling of being slightly immunosuppressed (flared tonsils and adenoids along with general feeling of unwellness) but this only lasts for a day or two.
I think for me rapamycin might have a longer half life and its possible my trough is not going low enough before the next dose. The maximum I have taken so far is 6mg once a week, no gfj just some fat with the tablets.
1 Like
@Samranas You are right to be cautious. I make sure I get to zero blood rapa by using a 2 week cycle which I do twice before taking an extra week (sometimes two) week off.
Good luck.
2 Likes
From my perspective, it depends what a person is sick with? And we are talking about reasonably dosed, cyclic no more often than every 7 days.
The part of your immune system that seems to get negatively impacted (and those only when you’ve got a therapeutic level in your bloodstream) has to do with your responses to bacteria, fungus, parasites.
Your T cells to a small degree help with these infections, but they are more focused on taking care of viral infections and providing immune response to early cancers. Those cells seem to get improved in function/number with certain interventions. Rapamycin is one of them, Human Growth Hormone seems to be another. I’m sure there are many others.
So I don’t want someone with a bacterial infection on Rapamycin until it is cleared up. For most viral respiratory infections, I’d tend to want them to keep taking it - but I think either way is find. The immune benefit of this agent is likely longer term - so even if you stop it with acute illness, I’d still think your T cells will act well due to the history of being on Rapamycin in the recent past.
One argument that would favor stopping the Rapamycin, is if you are likely to get a secondary bacterial infection (e.g. you start with a cold, and end up with a bacterial pneumonia) - then I’d think smart to stop it. This is mostly in elderly and those with history of doing this is the past.
4 Likes
Yes I was actually considering taking it once every 10 or 14 days and just increasing the dose proportionally to match (so 12mg every 14 days instead of 6 weekly). I think trough levels of less than 1 is ideal before taking the next dose. I want to eventually use GFJ or ketoconazole to reduce the amount of tablets i need to buy but every booster (even just fat) seems to lower Cmax whilst increasing AUC only so the trough levels would be higher before the next dose.
Some people just keep dormant viruses long term and even the slightest immunosuppression seems to bring that virus back to full force, I might fall under that category.
1 Like
I feel I did not clear that bad virus I got almost a month before taking my first ever dose of rapamycin. I actually rarely got sick prior to that bad viral episode, first time I have vomited in as long as I can remember.
So for me it might have just been unlucky timing for when I started taking rapamycin, I will take a gap and see but so far in the weekly doses I have done I feel slightly immunosuppressed and a ‘light-virus’ feeling for a day or two after the dosing day. This has happened every week for the past few weeks, I will try to increase the gap between doses when I restart if needed (once every 10-14 days instead of 7) to get trough levels low enough.
1 Like
Was listening to a video on someone talking about Rapa and they mentioned in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1nLjjMd7xQ
around 1:13:40 in this vid they mention similar to what I have been feeling on the weekly doses I did previously where for 1-2 days after the dose day I feel more unwell but goes back to normal at day 3-4. From what I have read from others experiences on different forums though most people don’t feel this effect
DrFraser, your mention that Rapamycin improves T cell function/numbers and that T cells help take care of viral infections may be why I never contracted SARS-Cov2 or it’s variations while many people around me did. Well, I say “never contracted” but I may have gotten a very short version of it that seemed quite mild. So, I don’t really know. During that era I took Rapamycin weekly, non-stop and I think it helped.
2 Likes
I don’t see evidence of decreased covid infections. However I see evidence of decreased risk of death and hospitalization if you do get a viral infection
4 Likes
I don’t stop rapamycin anymore when I’m sick. It doesn’t make a difference. I treat it more like a supplement. I’m on about 4mg + GFJ weekly. About 24ng/ml after 12 hours. Basically like taking 12mg a week without GFJ.
1 Like
@adriank
Doesnt mtorc2 get inhibited at that sort of dose as sirolimus might not clear fully by the end of the week, have you ever tested your trough levels right before dosing? I would guess you would have around 3-4ng/ml (thats assuming the gfj doesnt increase the half life of rapamycin by too much, otherwise it would be more)
From others experiences I have read not only here but in other forums so far, it seems that people that use rapamycin for me/cfs are more likely to get side effects than the the cohort that use it purely for longevity.
Its interesting as one key hypothesis for me/cfs is viral persistence causing chronic low level neuroinflammation, and rapamycin might cause viral reactivation in some cases (EBV for example) even if the doses are spaced far enough to not inhibit mtorc2 much. The researcher Amy Proal in the video I linked above (post #10) describes it as a herx reaction if symptoms are only seen for 1-2 days after dosing then returns to normal for the rest of the week.
I notice me/cfs users might tend to be younger on average and It seems that older people might tolerate rapamycin better so that might be a factor. The dosing used it similar, averaging 6mg/week for both groups.
This is all just my observation though.
After a week I’ve about 1.8ng/ml. I’ve taken different doses over the last 14 months. As high as 40ng/ml after 24 hours… I think at this level my psoriasis is under control. Everyone is different. Until I find a better solution this is the way it will be for me.
@adriank , can I ask what your approximate weight is? You’re taking a moderately high dose, but perhaps not so high if you are a heavier person. I’m wondering what your dose/kg is.
Honestly as long as you dont get sick more often (or other immunosuppression signs) and keep track of regular bloodwork then probably no harm.
GFJ seems to increase the half life but I dont know the exact value from the normal 62 hours, B Johnson took a similar equivalent dose (13mg) and his blood levels were:
Blood Rapamycin levels:
90 min: 26.5 ng/mL
4.1 days: 2.5 ng/mL
So gfj can extend the half life by a lot, so 13 mg in tablets would be out of the system faster than the equivalent dose using gfj (4mg+gfj)
What are you basing this on?
I’m 111kg. But regardless of weight the level in the blood is most important.
@KarlT just what I noticed myself. I haven’t had the flu for over 1.5 years, but I do boost my vitamin c level to about 1g per 12 hours when I can. Not to mention that certain illness are less severe with rapamycin.
@Samranas I am not sure if the half life is actually longer. From what I can see, the level still almost disappear after a week. But for the first 36 hours the level seems to linger on at a higher level before dropping off. I’ve done lots of 12 and 36 hour tests. I’m happy with 4mg+GFJ once a week at the moment until I feel differently.