Mk-4 increases testosterone in rats. And mk-7 should too. It’s quite marked:
6 Likes
2 Likes
I take my fat soluble vitamins together. D3 K2 and A along with my omega 3. I take ⅓ of a 4oz can of icelandic cod liver daily along with supplemental 5000iu of D3, 45mg K2 MK4 and 100mcg MK7, daily. The cod liver nets me about 10,000iu Vit A complex and 2g EPA 2g DHA. I consume this in the middle of my meal. I keep my 25 OH levels higher then average where it fluctuates from summer high to winter low between 50-60 ng/ml (125-150 mmol/L).
In looking at the various health nutrition articles on the net about Vit K they seem to push the K1 plant based sources even though the vast majority of the clinical research and even epidemiological studies link k2, much more than k1, with the various positive effects on cardiovacular, skeletal systems etc. They list the amounts of K1 content of these various plant based sources but almost none of the articles I found mention their bioavailabilty or lack their of. The fact that k1 is quite tightly bound to the plant tissue. Cooking does not seem to improve its bio availability either. Unlike K2 which can approach near complete bioavalablity from animal bacterial sources. Even if the plants are consumed with fat which stimulates bile acid release that combines with K1 to form micelles which allow for up to a 3 fold increase in absorption. Yet its still far less bioavailability than K2 sources or pure K1 supplements vs whole food sources… Unsaturated fatty acids were actually shown to decrease K1 absorption.
K1 also has a extremely short half life of only 1-2 hrs. K2 MK7 is about 3 days. Mk4 on the otherhand has a shorter life of less than 24hr in plasma as its quickly uptaken by tissue, the majority hepatic.
The japanese, as we know, are at the top of the list in mk-7 intake and plasma levels as 100g serving of natto can have almost 1000mcg. Other modified forms of natto that add in yam and other bacterial ready energy substrate sources can have far more. Makes the 100-200mcg supplemental doses we tend to take to seem anemic at best. Much like our comparitive iodine intakes. As the Japanese intake approachs and achieves mg not mcg amounts.
The focus of the majority of the very limited vitamin K research is on its corrective rather than preventive effects on the various disease pathologies. This is indictive of western and more specifically the US medical industry. Preventive practices are given the least priority. Which, IMO, follows a profit based motivation of care rather than health-centric with the burden, unfortunately, being born on the backs of the populus. Both financially and functional health.
7 Likes
Yeah, I think its one of the most crucial vitamins. I’ve been taking the one Chris Masterjohn recommended at one point at the dosage Chris Kresser recommends for years
1 Like
I’m a big natto fan, and a big mk7 fan. But i tend to eat a single pot, so a serving size if about 40g of natto and 450mcg of vit K2
2 Likes
I like it too. As I have aged I have developed a much more favorable taste profile for unami even pungent. I use to make my own my orginal target was the nattokinase but the K2 was a huge bonus. It also has a complex of mk k2s.
This study has 2 good table charts of the various menaquinones and their content as well as the second table shows the bacterial strain and its menaquinones. They are about half way down.
This one is even more comprehensive food k content list
3 Likes
Ii also thought this was a good study looking at the far reaching effects / benefits of Vitamin K beyond your basic effects on calcium distribution.
Can you share which one that is and at what dose?
Sure. I’ve been taking this to heart 9 Steps to Perfect Health - #4: Supplement Wisely - Chris Kresser, though not sure how accurate it is.
The Ultimate Vitamin K2 Resource | - Masterjohn at one point recommended innovix labs full spectrum. Not sure if it has changed recently
I take two of the innovix full spectrum daily. 1 containing Vitamin K2 MK-4 500mcg MK-7 100mcg. Might be a bit much.
1 Like
I do not think so. Far less then natto consuming Japanese get daily. The mk4 is usually in mg not mcg amounts.
1 Like
That’s great, thankyou. Do you know of any research in the impact on the gut microbiome?
“The capacity of intestinal bacteria to produce long-chain MKs that could become available for the host has been established for decades (8, 10, 60). However, despite recent interest in the human microbiome, very little progress has been made since the literature was last reviewed nearly 2 decades ago in understanding the role of MK synthesized by intestinal bacteria in human nutrition (60).”
i assume natto boosts this gut production. As may other foods…
1 Like
Yes it does. In the gut B. Subtilis.natto is another commensial bacteria usually brought in thru fermented food consumption or from the soil.
If you have not already read this, you may find this paper helpful in terms of Vit K effect on gut health and of more current relevance. Its references should prove helpful to drill down deeperif you so choose.
[[Front Immunol.] 2021; 12: 791565.
Published online 2022 Jan 5. doi: [10.3389/fimmu.2021.791565]
PMCID: PMC8769504
PMID: [35069573]
Role of Vitamin K in Intestinal Health](Role of Vitamin K in Intestinal Health - PMC)
We know that numerous strains of Bacillus Subtilis are beneficail in the gut as are numerous other soil based bacteria. Many listed below in my SBO supp list These strains we get from being exposed to nature, living soil, vegetables etc. Or you can get them from consumption of SBO supplements. Even though I live on a farm with live stock and a huge garden I still cycle in a varatiey of SBO products. They are carefully chosen so they each have differing strains even if they might have overlap at the species level.
There are numerous other species and strains of bacteria that are both commensial and pathogenic that have been shown to produce various menaquinones.
A few of the bacterial species I have found that are confirmed to produce k2 from various substrates proteins fibers agar etc
Bacillus cereus
B. mycoides
B. subtilis
Chromobacterium prodigiosus (= Serratia marcescens)
Escherichia coli
Mycobacterium tuberculosis
Sarcina lutea
Staphylococcus aureus.
There are numerous others.
For my SBO supplements that I use for my gut inoculation are the following and the list of the bacteria and their strains. I randomly mix one capsule of each together then divide them into 2 doses 1 dose per day. I take these 5 days per week. So I get varying mixture of these strains everyday. It also makes them last as they are not cheap. Ideally I wish I could get these in powder so I could mix into a single blend.
MegaSporeBiotic (Microbiome Labs)
Soil-based species:
B. coagulans SC-208
B. subtilis HU58
B. clausii SC-109
B. indicus HU36
B. licheniformis SL-307
ProBioSpore (Designs for Health)
Soil-based species:
B. coagulans MTCC 5856 (Lactospore)
B. coagulans SNZ 1969
B. coagulans Lacris-15
B. subtilis DE111
B. clausii CSI08
Probiotic-3 (Advanced Orthomolecular Research)
Soil-based species:
Bacillus subtilis TO-A
E. faecium T-110
C. butyricum TO-A
Schiff Digestive Advantage Daily Probiotics:
Soil-based species:
B. coagulans GBI-30
B. coagulans 6086
Enviromedica TerraFlora
B. pumilus (Ribospore®)
B. megaterium EM144™
B. subtilis
B. clausii
B. coagulans
Master SOB List:
B. coagulans SC-208
B. coagulans MTCC 5856
B. coagulans SNZ 1969
B. coagulans Lacris-15
B. coagulans GBI-30
B. coagulans 6086l
B. subtilis HU58
B. subtilis DE111
B. subtilis TO-A
B. clausii SC-109
B. clausii CSI08
B. indicus HU36
B. licheniformis SL-307
B. pumilus (Ribospore®)
B. megaterium EM144
E. faecium T-110
C. butyricum TO-A
If a company would bother to combine all of these strains into a single product they would have a industry leading SBO product. All of these strains have research support behind them.
I also eat numerous fermented foods. But as I eat very low net carbs (keto) its not as much as I would otherwise. But you can still eat a good amount of kimchi, pickles, along with a bit of kefier and a yogurt I make using specific bacteria so its tech not yogurt but tastes just like it. I let it ferment for 36hrs so practically all the lactose is used up. I also add inulin as extra substrate prior to fermenting. Comes out like very thick greek yogurt.
Pickles and Kimchi save me, on the now much more rare occasions, I get late evening munchies. I use to be a chronic late night eater. Not necssarily unhealthy food but very unhealthy time to eat.
We make and ferment all of them ourselves.
I am a proponent of high gut biome diversity.
I found a number of commercial kimchi have sugars or honey in them. Same with pickles. So we stick to making our own which we can make to our tastes. I for example do not like my kimchi too spicy.
4 Likes
And now this!
I started vitamin K2 two years ago for bone health after I showed early stages of osteopenia (-1.2 lumbar and -1. pelvis). Taking K2 and a teaspoon of Taurine daily in my coffee helped to reverse my osteopenia back to normal (-.8 lumbar and - .9 pelvis).
But Vitamin K is great for brain health too.
Link: New research deepens understanding of how vitamin K affects brain health
7 Likes
That’s great news! How much K2 were you taking and what form and for how long? Also how much taurine? Were there a lot of other confounders or are you decently confident the K2+taurine is what improved your bone density?
2 Likes
As it currently stands it is only AFAIK possible to supplement with mk4, mk7 and mk9.
Mk4 and mk7 or 9 are quite different in their function.
AIUI mk7 and 9 are hydrophobic because of their longer number of isoprene residues. Hence they can sit their tail in the mitochondrial membrane and accept electrons from the electron chain.
mk4 cannot do this, but is useful for bone processing.
Dosing of mk4 is normally a lot more than mk7, but I am personally experimenting with relatively high mk7 levels at the moment. Currently running at 11mg per day mk7.
1 Like
Hello Olafur -
I am pretty confident it was the K2 plus Calcium supplement and one teaspoon full of taurine every morning in my coffee.
I had my test 2 years ago and was told I had osteopenia in lumbar and pelvis. The DEXA technician said take a K2 supplement and Calcium supplement. It might not get worse.
Started these 2 years ago.
After reading about Taurine benefits on this site - 1 year ago. I started one teaspoon in coffee every morning.
As those 3 were my only changes. All prescriptions consistent and previous supplements. I am 99.9 % confident that the K2 and Calcium helped stabilize and the Taurine did the reversal.
My DEXA reports. You can compare years 2024 to 2022. Is on the images.
The DEXA technician said my improvement on just supplements is pretty unusual. She was unaware of taurine for bone health.
5 Likes
I think there is evidence to justify taking MK4 as well as mk7
1 Like
I recently started (about 3 weeks ago) taking K2 daily (mk7) from Nutricost (100mcg) for calcium related benefits.
I’ve not noticed any sleep problems, but do take one gelcap early in the day.
1 Like
FWIW…
Review the article titled;
“High Dose Vitamin K2 Builds New Bone”
Linked below.
Yes, it is a consumer article by Life Extension, with 47 very good references
The K2 dose is 45mg{yes, 45,000,mcg] per day.
3 Likes
I think the sleep problems are normally as a result of getting to a new steady state and go after a few days.
1 Like