Today I took MK4, MK7 and MK9. I often don’t take MK7 because as a result of providing an extra electron transport for the electron transport chain in the mitochondria it disrupts my sleep. I take MK4 because it carboxylates the gla complex. (gamma-carboxyglutamyl).
I have been doing particularly well for sleep and want to see if I can now sleep well taking Mk7 without alcohol.
I do take MK9, but I don’t as it stands know any particularly good reason to take it.
I would like to take MK7 regularly and I will see if I can cope better with it.
I used to get my MK-7 in the form of natto - when I had a really good supplier. I recently moved to another country so no longer have access to a reliable natto source.
I am now supplementing MK-7 again - 200mcg/day along with my 4000IU D3. However, i have seen some (sparse) references to competing absorption between k2 and d3 - meaning they should be taken separately.
I was previously taking d3 in the morning and natto with dinner. Now I’m taking them in one supplement for convenience. Maybe I’m making a mistake.
Anyone got good data/knowledge on this d3/k2 dosage/absorption issue?
This link goes to the text of the paper:
In an ideal world, Vitamin K2 would have the same association with cardiovascular health that folic acid has with pregnancy. Optimal Vitamin K2 intake is crucial to avoid the calcium plaque buildup of atherosclerosis, thus keeping the risk and rate of calcification as low as possible.1-3
Matrix GLA protein (MGP)—found in the tissues of the heart, kidneys, and lungs—plays a dominant role in vascular calcium metabolism. Its production is stimulated by Vitamin D3, but it requires adequate Vitamin K2 intakes to be activated (similar to the bone-building protein osteocalcin). Once activated by Vitamin K2, MGP can bind calcium and escort it out of the areas where this mineral is destructive, namely arteries and soft tissues.1,4
No other productive mechanism for maintaining flexible blood vessels walls has been discovered, which makes MGP the only known and most potent existing inhibitor of cardiovascular calcification.
That is why Vitamin K2 is crucial as a cardiovascular health nutrient. Here we will endeavor to clear up considerable confusion about Vitamin K2, ensuring the right form is identified, as well as provide the substantial body of evidence confirming its role as a cardiovascular-support nutrient.
Vitamin K is a family of vitamins, the most important being Vitamins K1(phylloquinone) and K2 (menaquinones). Think of them as fraternal twins. They have similarities, such as working in the liver for blood clotting, and chemically they share a quinone ring called menadione.
But that is where their similarities end.
Vitamin K2 has several molecules, called menaquinones, which make K2 available beyond the liver for other systems. Vitamin K1 is the principle source of dietary Vitamin K and is needed for proper blood coagulation. Meanwhile, Vitamin K2 is essential to avoid calcium deposits in the arteries as well as to build and maintain strong bones. (A more detailed breakdown of Vitamin K1 and Vitamin K2, is in the review paper, “Vitamin K: Double Bonds beyond Coagulation Insights into Differences between Vitamin K1 and K2 in Health and Disease,” published in The International Journal of Molecular Sciences.5)
Not all forms of Vitamin K2 are created equal. The two most commonly commercialized forms of Vitamin K2 are MK-4 and MK-7. Due to its side chain, MK-7 has a much longer half-life in the body than MK-4, allowing it greater access to tissues beyond the liver.
Further, the serum half-life of MK-4 has been shown to last a few hours compared to a 3+ day half-life for MK-7.
So although they have the same molecular mechanism of action, MK-7 is more bioavailable than MK-4. And due to MK-4’s short half-life and poor bioavailability, it requires multiple doses per day at milligramlevels–versus MK-7’s microgram levels–for measurable efficacy.
I put together some research on this
Yes, a great paper, and I agree with what it says since I have heard it elsewhere, but listen to the conclusion paragraph:
In less than 20 years, more than 19 human clinical trials with Vitamin K2 have been published confirming bone and cardiovascular health benefits in both healthy and patient populations, in young and old. The research will only grow. These trials have used NattoPharma’s MenaQ7® as the actual source material, which further cements the need to use MenaQ7® as your source of Vitamin K2 as MK-7, especially as cardiovascular health wreaks havoc on the world’s population.
Doesn’t that sound like it was sponsored by MenaQ7?? How did they get this piece published here.
“He currently serves as the Chief Medical Officer with NattoPharma ASA, the world leaders in Vitamin K2 research and development, and exclusive supplier of MenaQ7®, the first and best clinically validated Vitamin K2 as MK-7 available, and the only K2 as MK-7 patented for cardiovascular health.”
Its more of an issue with pubmed. To be fair, however, lots of research has conflicts of interest. This is a rather superficial puff for a particular approach.
MK-7 is a good thing. Historically when I took mk-7 I also got drunk so I could sleep better, but I am now managing to take mk-7 and sleep well. That does not mean I don’t get drunk from time to time (as happens to be the case now - I did a blood test today where I wanted to stay off booze until that point.)
With a bit of luck I can now manage to take mk-7, not get drunk and also sleep well. Only time will tell.
The author “currently serves as the Chief Medical Officer with NattoPharma ASA, the world leaders in Vitamin K2 research and development, and exclusive supplier of MenaQ7®, the first and best clinically validated Vitamin K2 as MK-7 available, and the only K2 as MK-7 patented for cardiovascular health.”
Despite what the author says, most human trials have found that MK-7 fails to inhibit arterial calcification, and the only study on the subject found that it failed to inhibit calcific valve disease, too. And one of the successful trials and another that was suggestively positive used old-fashioned K1.
There was a nice review of the vitamin K calcification studies on Consumerlab.com.
I would agree that there is a debate as to whether MK-7 does anything about arterial calcification. I can still see plenty of reasons to take a bit of MK-7, however.
It couldn’t hurt to supplement with MK-7. Although don’t expect Rapamycin level results.
RapamyinCurious, Do you have a more precise link to the vitamin K calcification studies at Consumerlab.com? Thanks.
Yes, but it’s behind a paywall:
… and the page is coded such that one can’t simply copy-paste the text.
(CL is FWIW worth the investment if you use a lot of supplements).
My historic problem with MK-7 was that in giving my cells more energy it also caused me sleeping problems. However, on Wednesday I slept really well notwithstanding taking MK-7 in the morning and without getting drunk - which counteracts the MK-7 from the perspective of sleep latency.
MK-7 does not give cells more energy.
In one sense you are right (conservation of energy), but in the sense of providing more ATP then there is research that indicates MK-7 enables the production of more ATP which the cells use as energy.
"Finally, MK-7 increased ATP production as compared to vehicle (15%; p < 0.05), even in the presence of warfarin. Conclusion: Our experiments show that in primary human SMCs, MK-7 lowers oxidative stress and EV release and increases ATP production. "
AFAIK it is the effect of providing the extra electron transport. In any event I can confirm it causes sleep problems for people particularly in terms of latency.
… in cells in vitro with unlimited glucose and oxygen and nothing else to do . Now show me the study where they fed one group of animals MK-7 and compared them to another group getting enough K-1 as to maintain normal clotting etc (and not shot up with warfarin or extremely high levels of vitamins A or D) and then found higher levels of ETS activity and/or ATP in biopsied cells.
On a purely personal basis I am happy with the fact that it has a tendency to cause me sleep latency problems.
The fact that MK-7 provides an additional electron transport is established science.
That really has to be seen as something that will provide additional ATP rather than having no effect or a reduction in ATP.
Are you equally happy with the dueling anecdote that someone else had “a dramatic improvement in quality of sleep - like from chronic borderline insomnia to sleeping deeply every night” when he started taking it?
“(Btw for info, I’m 56, female and APOE3/4. The brand of K2 is “InnovixLabs Full Spectrum” which I felt was the best formulation - MK4 + MK7, no K1, oil-based, and not a mega-dose).”
I don’t see why it matters. The details matter and she has not given the details of the amount of the dose.
I take MK7 because of the extra electron transport inter alia. I think it also assists with autophagy.
and increases ATP production.
The efficiency at the cellular level is key. Therefore encouraging autophagy is part of that. I have taken my planned Rapamycin this morning at 6.15am and will slightly delay my breakfast to maintain a fasted state for a bit longer as I wish to see whether I can determine that autophagy has been increased.
In the end, however, MK7 does normally disrupt my sleep and perhaps adds up to 5 beats per minute to my resting heart rate at night (I take it in the morning).