So, what's the deal with collagen?

These may have clinical significance, but are not close to Retin-A at night + sun protection:

B3, Vit C, CoQ10, retinol (for around eyes with thinner skin), ALA, AHAs, salicylic acid, catechins, gingko, ginseng, grape seed, soy isoflavones, chemical peels (depending on the severity of skin photoaging), daylight photodynamic therapy. There are also cosmetics like botox, filler, and laser resurfacing (primarily ablative fractional photothermolysis, but all uncontrolled studies afaik).

Note a transient effect cannot be ruled out for a lot of laser stuff afaik for recent evidence - the people using and selling lasers tend to have the most positive praise for it. But I never hear them say it could be a transient effect which is suspected bias. Trustworthy scientists tend to speak up about the limitations of any intervention. Not to mention, PRP is a general term - there are no actual standards of administration afaik - this makes it nearly impossible to evaluate objectively and they tend to use scientific-sounding names without sufficient evidence. I would avoid it for now until the industry matures enough to make precise claims and standards, instead of positive hearsay claims of some random industry-sponsored and/or small uncontrolled study that is almost bound to have publication bias. I also tend to (not always!) avoid expensive skincare services sold by biased people with possible adverse effects (ie laser is not risk-free!).

I don’t have any skincare affiliates and I either get the cheapest one with the ingredients I like or make it myself with professional equipment. Just my own research on suggestive evidence. I’m not a dermatologist, so do not rely - ask your derm. You also have to get the dosing and application right.

I also go down lower evidence custom products not available in the market, such as topical prebiotics/probiotics. Also, I take oral organic (this specific brand does not have heavy metals) collagen peptides, but all the studies are industry sponsored. Every single dermatologist I talked to so far has not heard about these custom products and oral collagen peptides yet - it’s more of very specific PhDs at this point.

The basic skincare routine is a cleanser, moisturizer, then sunscreen (zinc oxide) in the morning. Not really much to it beyond avoiding specific ingredients. This is where having a deep biochem background helps a lot to avoid cancer - I find a lot of skincare folks don’t care enough about cancer or just pay lip service to the simple stuff that is relatively obvious.

When it comes to the more complex biochemistry - it starts becoming more obvious a lot of people don’t know much but purport to be experts. As the simplest example, they push benzene-containing chemical sunscreens blindly following recommendations because they lack chemistry knowledge. I long suspected these sunscreens will end up in recalls.
Another simple one is they don’t think of heavy metals when I mention oral collagen peptides. You can ask these two yourself to test different derm clinics.

There are very low levels of regulation in personal care products, very low safety standards, and very high-profit margins with classic human insecurities. The perfect storm for BS.

I’ve even seen dermatologists getting into skincare multilevel marketing schemes selling questionable products, so I only trust specific research-heavy dermatologists (usually academic) with no company affiliation or upsold products in the clinic to save time, instead of interviewing a bunch of possibly subpar and sales folks one-by-one.

You don’t need to spend a lot to get the effect - most skincare products alone are actually pretty cheap for me, but you need to get unbiased experts if you want reliable information - I can’t believe how many times a medical assistant at the front desk upselling me was spewing skincare BS when I was in different derm offices. Not going to name any offices, but that’s my experience. Unfortunately, the industry is heavily female-focused so you need to adjust for that too when it comes to male-specific skin stuff (ie post-shave moisturizers).

Also, every single subpar derm clinic in my experience will skimp on the penis, testicles, and anal mucosa in a standard preventative full body skin exam (to detect skin cancer early), especially if they farmed it out to female PA. I find those in my experience are the most hesitant to deliver excellent healthcare (feel free to test this theory if you are skeptical - I’ve been to more than 10 derm clinics) unless you specifically request and insist on the completeness of a full body skin exam. Yet, anal cancer is an extremely deadly killer in men. The fact is most derm clinics are saying they are the best, yet don’t deliver the best thorough care when you have someone without a big knowledge gap testing it out. Beware most derm places aren’t thorough enough and I find men tend to get screwed over more so in healthcare. I have been repeatedly disappointed by objective findings of substandard care, but most people don’t take men’s health seriously. I can’t even easily find an andrologist and everyone never does a testicle exam during a preventative visit unless I ask, yet my SO can easily find many gynecologists who will routinely do a pelvic exam and check the ovaries without prompting.

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My female derm does an excellent scan but stops at these areas. She tells me to check carefully, use mirror, etc and submit any concern pics for possible followup. Maybe I will insist for TSA full body scan next time!

She did catch something on my back, referred sample for biopsy, and it came back questionable enough to have plastic surgeon remove as precaution.

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That’s literally part of the standard full-body skin exam, so that’s BS. You should insist on it.

If she’s uncomfortable, get a male/other colleague to do it or have a chaperone. Really not that hard.

If she can’t make reasonable accommodations to get what was advertised - a full body skin exam - done, it is very reasonable to get your money back.

Kinda ironic that…where the sun don’t shine, can kill you.

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Well, there’s also HPV in men too (even if vaccinated and heterosexual). HPV is very common - 80% in sexually active males of any sexual orientation. Cancer doesn’t need sunlight.

It’s complete BS and if she’s willing to put her interests first over yours (within reason) then you should fire your derm. I’ve done my share of prostate and anal exams because I was nearly certain nobody else did it, especially the anal, testicle, and penile exams. Found anal cancers because the derm didn’t want to do it, the primary care thought the derm did it, etc etc.

Should we all be getting the HPV vaccine? I know its generally just recommended for younger people, but for those of us planning to live a long time, perhaps its reasonable?

Everyone should get the HPV vaccine according to CDC schedule, including men, up to 45 years old. I found it completely horrifying that the only clinic carrying it nearby was planned parenthood and I was the only man in the entire clinic. The female NP even mentioned - this is the first time I ever gave this [vaccine] to a man.

Yet the HPV vaccine is the easiest way to drastically reduce the risk of penile and anal cancer in men. Nobody told me this until I found out how bad it was in med school, and the focus was always on women and their pap smears for cervical cancer. Luckily at the time, I got the vaccine and all of my sexual contacts were virgins (I don’t have a thing for virgins - I literally didn’t know until it hit me and it was pure luck). Ask any physician - the big gynecology chapter and many board exam questions on women are far more than the tiny few pages on men with maybe one board question on BPH for men at best. Most physicians end up skimping on andrology, male physiology, male fertility, and male-related genetics unless they did it out of curiosity rather than cramming for the boards and skimping on all the ultra low yield stuff.

Everyone seems to defer the exam for penile, testicular, and anal cancer to someone else - and then nobody actually checks for it. Nor are there easily available andrologists. I have a suspicion I have probably found more anal and penile cancers than most dermatologists who are supposed to be the ones finding all the skin cancers. It sounds funny but it’s pretty sad actually.

It’s fine to be skeptical about it and I was for a while - but at this point, I have found more than enough objective evidence to be true, not just personal experience.

Would cost me about $600 CDN.

Shingrix cost me almost as much, was not covered at my age taken.

Cancer is my biggest scare…intervene for “all causes”

I tell my patients to check for patient assistance programs to get it drastically reduced or free.

At the time (several years back), I had a low income to qualify for ACA with advanced premium tax credits as well as the free patient assistance programs, despite being a high net worth (money and assets were tied up in my startup business at the time and I was living in a van just to barely pay my mortgage by renting my home out).

Unless you are working a 9-5 with an upper-middle income (at that point you should pay out of pocket), you should be able to figure out how to qualify - I’ve had my share of pro-bono indigent and underserved care and I know how to work the system pretty well so basically anyone can qualify.

What about guys over 45? (who hope to live to 150 :wink:

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It’s most cost-effective in teenagers unfortunately and the cost-benefit analysis tends to end around 26 because most people have already had sex before.

They only recently extended it to 26-45 from more evidence (insurance doesn’t cover it because they decided they don’t want to pay), but as I have said before - geriatricians are too poorly paid (you get paid much less than a general practitioner as a specialist, so people literally hide the fellowship credentials they spent 1-2 years working for near minimum wage on). There are too few researchers and nobody is spending enough on geriatrics at the moment when the potential benefit is limited (I consider age 50+ based on physiological changes, but most define 60+ or 65+ due to social norms regarding retirement age).

You are going to have a tough time finding human trial evidence to support that vaccination decision and chances is your doc is going to say too costly for too little potential benefit - especially as a man because they assume you don’t need the best possible healthcare - I’ve seen obgyns supporting older virgin women to do it (offlabel) before by asking social history and sexual/intimate partner violence questions thoroughly (standard of care - everyone is supposed to do it for women only - nobody does it for men) - never heard of an older man getting it because they don’t bother to ask - but I suppose potential harms are minimal if no contraindications and there’s a potential benefit (ie you are a virgin or you are certain you only had sex with virgins or partners who are not virgins but only had sex with virgins - hard to say for sure if you only had perfect condom use plus monogamy with a partner who always had partners who practiced perfect condom use as I don’t have the stats off the top of my head for HPV 16 & 18 with condom use).

Of course, few physicians will mention this in my experience (or they already forgot a good chunk of immunology), and you’ll have a tough time justifying it unless you really bring it up and push for justified non-FDA-approved off-label use.

If you do end up wanting to go ahead and talk with your physician - please report back on your experience!

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That is an excellent question. The CDC Vaccine Guidelines (Adult Immunization Schedule by Vaccine and Age Group | CDC) still don’t have it for anyone over the age of 45. I’m glad they’ve stretched it to age 45, but it should be for anyone who wants it, including me. I am in favor of this vaccine even though my risk is almost negligible at this point.

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I’ll add STIs and sexual activity is much higher in geriatric patients than commonly expected, so if you intend to have sexual activity in your golden years and have decades more than average expected lifespan it could be well worth it.

Especially if you’re one of the few old “healthy” men in their 80s without ED, decent physical appearance, kind personality…there’s a highly favorable gender ratio :stuck_out_tongue:

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Someone pointed me towards this paper as an area that is moving forward with solid science behind it , in terms of skin care / therapy:

Results: A full de novo formation of oxytalan and elaunin fibers was observed in the subepidermal region, with reconstitution of the papillary structure of the dermal-epidermal junction. Elastotic deposits in the deep dermis were substituted by a normal elastin fiber network. The coordinated removal of the pathologic deposits and their substitution by the normal ones was concomitant with activation of cathepsin K and matrix metalloproteinase 12, and with expansion of the M2 macrophage infiltration.

Conclusion: The full regeneration of solar elastosis was obtained by injection of in vitro expanded autologous adipose mesenchymal stem cells, which are appropriate, competent, and sufficient to elicit the full structural regeneration of the sun-aged skin.

Full Paper available here for download (PDF)
http://sci-hub.wf/10.1097/PRS.0000000000006867

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I think many people here are taking longevity drugs precisely with that goal in mind… of having a very long and enjoyable sex life…

Related to this topic…

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“The same Indian supplier of Sirolimus has tretinoin cream 0.1 15g for $6.70 each. I just ordered 10.”

I have experience using tretinoin and I’ve spent time reading on the Reddit tretinoin forum reviewing user experiences.

I would advise caution. Most people don’t start out at 0.1%. They start out at 0.025%, and even then, they often start out applying it every other night. Many people never go over 0.05% for antiaging.

Tretinoin has a tendency to cause dryness, persistent redness, irritation and even temporary worsening of fine lines and wrinkles if a person doesn’t ease in to the application. There are some people who may be able to get away with just starting right out with daily application at full strength, but I think they’re a smaller percentage of people. And if you get a red face and lines from starting at full strength, it can take weeks to resolve. From reports, general practitioners and dermatologists will often tell people to apply hydrocortisone cream if this happens, but this sometimes isn’t a strong enough steroid.

My own suggestion for introducing tretinoin:

The first 6 to 8 weeks: Start with a 0.025% cream with mometasone every night. Example brand: SkinLite. It also has 2% hydroquinone, but it’s a low/gentle concentration. Mometasone is a stronger anti-inflammatory steroid than hydrocortisone, and it works well to help introduce tretinoin. Steroid creams should not be applied long term, so duration shouldn’t be longer than 6 to 8 weeks. I like SkinLite because it spreads well and isn’t drying. You don’t necessarily need a moisturizer over top. Buy-pharma.md and Alldaychemist have this.

After 6 to 8 weeks: Switch to 0.025% nightly tret without the steroid. It is drying. Apply a good moisturizer over it. If you start seeing too much irritation, switch to every other night or use a retinol cream and tretinoin on alternate nights. Oil of Olay retinol creams are designed to minimize irritation.

Eventually, you can increase 0.05% and 0.1% as your skin adapts.

Probably the most frequent approach is to just start at day one with 0.025% every other day and use hydrocortisone as needed. But I think what I’ve outlined above may work better.

Tips:

Do not apply to moist/wet skin. This is believed to significantly increase the incidence of skin redness.

Use a face cream over the tretinoin gel or cream. I like to use LosecSumma Elixir Cream because it has numerous anti-inflammatory herbal ingredients.

Avoid using tretinoin around the eyes. Tretinoin can cause inflammation to the eye surface. Consider something like Oil of Olay Retinol Max eye cream instead.

If you get an area of redness, keep some SkinLite on hand and use it for a few days on the isolated area. Or, hydrocortisone may help a little.

Be aware of what people often call “purging”, which is more frequent in the first few months. Basically, the skin peels. It tends to happen most on the corners of the mouth, chin, and corners of the nose. So you have to look in the mirror frequently. You may be fine, and then a few hours later you see all this skin peeling off.

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Thank you for the info. I am not using it in my face if that make any difference? Forearms

17α-estradiol, a lifespan-extending compound, attenuates liver fibrosis by modulating collagen turnover rates in male mice
(June 2022) https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.06.16.496423
Estrogen signaling is protective against chronic liver diseases, although men and a subset of women are contraindicated for chronic treatment with 17β-estradiol (17β-E2) or combination hormone replacement therapies. We sought to determine if 17α-estradiol (17α-E2), a naturally-occurring diastereomer of 17β-E2, could attenuate liver fibrosis.
We found that 17α-E2 significantly reduced collagen synthesis rates and increased collagen degradation rates, which was mirrored by declines in transforming growth factor β1 (TGF-β1) and lysyl oxidase-like 2 (LOXL2) protein content in liver. These improvements were associated with increased matrix metalloproteinase 2 (MMP2) activity and suppressed stearoyl-coenzyme A desaturase 1 (SCD1) protein levels, the latter of which has been linked to the resolution of liver fibrosis. We also found that 17α-E2 increased liver fetuin-A protein, a strong inhibitor of TGF-β1 signaling, and reduced pro-inflammatory macrophage activation and cytokines expression in the liver.
We conclude that 17α-E2 reduces fibrotic burden by suppressing HSC activation and enhancing collagen degradation mechanisms. Future studies will be needed to determine if 17α-E2 acts directly in hepatocytes, HSCs, and/or immune cells to elicit these benefits.

Evidence before this study The prevalence and severity of chronic liver diseases are greater in men than women and men are twice as likely to die from chronic liver diseases. However, the prevalence and severity of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH), and liver fibrosis becomes comparable between the sexes following menopause, particularly when hormone replacement therapies (HRT) are not initiated. These observations suggest that estrogen signaling is protective against liver disease onset and progression, which is supported by studies in rodents demonstrating that 17β-estradiol (17β-E2) ameliorates hepatic steatosis and fibrogenesis. However, chronic administration of 17β-E2 or combination HRTs are unrealistic in men due to feminization and increased risk for stroke and prostate cancer, and a subset of the female population are also at an increased risk for breast cancer and cardiovascular events when on HRTs. Therefore, we have begun exploring the therapeutic potential of 17α-estradiol (17α-E2), a naturally-occurring, nonfeminizing, diastereomer of 17β-E2, for the treatment of liver diseases.
In this study, using tracer-based labeling approaches in male mice subjected to CCl4-induced liver fibrosis, we show that 17α-E2 reduces liver fibrosis by attenuating collagen synthesis and enhancing collagen degradation mechanisms. Both transforming growth factor β1 (TGF-β1) and lysyl oxidase-like 2 (LOXL2) protein content in liver were reduced by 17α-E2. We also found that 17α-E2 increased matrix metalloproteinase 2 (MMP2) activity and suppressed stearoyl-coenzyme A desaturase 1 (SCD1) protein levels, the latter of which has been linked to the resolution of liver fibrosis. We also found that 17α-E2 increased liver fetuin-A protein, a strong inhibitor of TGF-β1 signaling, and reduced pro-inflammatory macrophage activation and cytokine expression in the liver.
This study supports the idea that estrogens are protective against chronic liver diseases and that 17α-E2 may have therapeutic utility for the treatment of liver fibrosis.

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You can use it on your arms, but the possibility of significant irritation still exists and starting at a lower concentration would be a good idea. You could patch test it first for a couple weeks. And you’d need to put body lotion over it at night and use sunblock during the day if you are wearing short sleeves. It doesn’t have to be smelly suntan lotion. You can use the sunblock designed for the face. The forearms are a common area for eczema and irritation to develop. So be aware of this.

I assume from your picture that you’re younger. If the problem is just freckles and superficial sun damage you might be better off just going to a local “med spa”, where you can get treatment for less money than with a dermatologist. IPL treatments effectively remove freckles. But this is more ideal for women because it can remove hair. So in men, you could have a chemical peel done on your forearms instead. You would just wear long sleeves for several days afterward. And remember not to pull any hanging pieces of skin off. Let all skin fall off naturally. And then you can follow the treatment with a low dose hydroquinone cream or another ingredient to prevent rebound hyperpigmentation that sometimes occurs post inflammation. And then while you’re at the med spa you could take advantage of other services. For example, if you have a few spots on your face to zap, etc.

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Another new study on a supplement that helps with skin:

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