So, what's the deal with collagen?

The photosensitivity from retinoids is not an acute effect related to photostability (or lack thereof) of the molecule. One should always practice sun protection while using any retinoid, regardless of time of application.

Thus, it’s fine to apply adapalene in the morning or evening. Regardless, one should be extra careful with sum protection because retinoids increase sensitivity to sunburn regardless of time of day of application.

No offense, but this is why I don’t take dermatology advice from non-dermatology providers.

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Sorry, have to go with the derma doc on this one.

For the majority of my life, I have been going to dermatologists for the treatment of photodamaged skin. Overexposure to the desert sun resulted in chronic actinic keratoses.
In addition to other treatments, I have a prescription for 0.1% tretinoin. I love it. It goes on silky smooth and I have never experienced redness or irritation as some others have. It dramatically reduced the rate of newly occurring keratoses. Since I have been using rapamycin my skin has dramatically improved and all keratoses have cleared up, something I didn’t expect.

Having said that, my dermatologists have always been adamant about using it in the evening. Retin-A is much more unstable than Adapalene. As I understand the literature Adapoline is used more for acne treatment.

“Adapalene is a photostable, rigid, and highly lipophilic synthetic retinoid”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/adapalene

Okay, just to be sure - I did more research on the biochemistry side because it makes no sense that the FDA would say only at the evening and never at morning on the label, on top of my dermatologist being so specific. If you want to go against the experienced reviewers and safety experts…then you better have a good reason.

I assure you every single PA or NP I’ve talked to never goes into biochemistry or FDA/patient safety studies in depth - they defer to an expert and stay in their lane if they are not overconfident. Every single highly paid patient safety consultant I know is an MD.

“Animal studies on compounds with a similar mode of action to adapalene have suggested that these may enhance the development of skin cancers caused by UV light. Adapalene is essentially stable to oxygen and light and is chemically non-reactive. Whilst short term studies have shown no phototoxic to photoallergic potential of adapalene, small numbers of reactions consistent with phototoxicity were reported in clinical studies, the safety of using adapalene during long or repeated exposures to sunlight or UV radiation has not been established in animals or humans. Exposure to sunlight or UV irradiation (including sunlamps) should be avoided during treatment with adapalene. Use of sunscreen products and protective clothing over treated areas is recommended when exposure cannot be avoided.”

The recommendation goes against the FDA label as well as the safety studies above. Sunprotection does not necessarily mean sunscreen. I’ve seen some recommend staying in the shade or avoiding the outdoors, partly because some chemical sunscreens can cause cancer with benzene, see recent J&J sunscreen large-scale recalls. I’ve had the same midlevel practitioners never raise this specific benzene manufacturing concern, but the derms I had with deep research background said to use zinc oxide just to be sure based on FDA data GRASE: https://www.fda.gov/media/124655/download.

Indoor lamps have UV. UV can go through windows indoors as well and bounce off reflective surfaces like water. It’s not just sunlight outdoors.

Biochemistry pathway of retinoids:

Relative “photostability” says nothing about UV stability. Here are the wavelengths at which adapalene is excited via UV light. As you can see, adapalene is much more stable in visible light than tretinoin from the graph (not perfect 100% either), but not UV light.

So yes, it is relatively high photostability for light in the visible spectrum, but not UV stable nor perfect photostability.

We know air pollution leads to ROS, which leads to premature skin aging, senescence, immunosuppression, and photocarcinogenesis - that’s why we use skin cleansers daily.

Adapalene without any UV exposure and only light exposure is probably safe or negligible - so yes, the study is not wrong to say it is “photostable” in visible light. Adapalene with UV exposure may cause cancer from metabolites and ROS production, as noted in safety studies empirically and retinoid mechanistic chemical pathways. It is probably exacerbated in morning use.

I use Retin-A in the evening (no light at all) partly to avoid mixing morning skin care products (acidity and presence of oxidation agents can accelerate degradation rates leading to possible metabolites that may be tumorigenic) and partly because of skin turnover rates, not just because of photolability. Just attributing it to photostable is missing all the subtleties of treatment. “15 years of derm experience” probably meant the same batch of uncomplicated/simple patients parroting the same advice without much complex thought, not complex derm patients and/or complex skincare formulations and/or in-depth dermatology research. Again, consistent with me and my colleagues’ observations of the proliferation of overconfident midlevel practitioners. All you have to do is ask your physician or check out the midlevel discussions. There are plenty of midlevels who openly talk about NP degree mills with 100% acceptance rates/online degrees and overconfident midlevels in their own reddit forums, it’s not just the physicians. There is also a reason private equity firms are funding midlevel education and lobbying for independent practice - churns out cheaper labor quickly (lower labor cost) with lower quality but the same bill = more unnecessary labs and consults = more profits = two-tier healthcare system.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the patients getting advice from someone with non-research backgrounds have a higher rate of aging and cancer when using adapalene in the morning over long periods of time. My guess is someone just ran with the “photostability” story and assumed you could just use it in the morning since there were no big issues in the short-term studies that used visible light only. It’s not a surprise to me when I ask for long-term safety studies - there are no answers and just a dodge. Nor was there a direct response to the multiple chemistry mechanisms showing an issue or patient safety issues in the empirical studies we already know about.

Here are the chemical pathways of adapalene in the presence of oxidation, acidity, and UV light (not visible light):

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The point is if you apply tretinoin in the morning, it will be deactivated by light and won’t work because it is highly photounstable. Adapalene, by contrast, is more photostable and will not be deactivated by light, so it will still work as intended. In BOTH cases, the patient should be extra cautious about sun protection (shade, hat with brim, zinc-based sunscreen) due to retinoid-induced photosensitivity, regardless of morning vs evening application of adapalene or adapalene vs tretinoin.

As long as the patient has UV protection (which protects skin as well as the adapalene molecule itself from UV), his/her bases are covered with morning application of adapalene. My original point stands.

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Just an innocent bystander here, but my dermatologists seemed to be warning me of the danger, not the deactivation thereof, and therefore wasting my money.
I’ll ask my dermatologist what he thinks next time I see him, which hopefully is never.
Meanwhile, I will continue to treat myself as a shade-seeking plant.
I have often pointed out to my younger friends who argue the benefits of the sun, “look at the skin of your inner thigh and compare it with the skin of your face, neck, and outer forearm”.

“delivery truck for 28 years” with one side in the sun (UV light goes through the windows)

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Both are issues with tretinoin – deactivation of the molecule by light if applied in the morning (immediate effect, doesn’t happen w/adapalene), and increased vulnerability to sun damage/sun burn (a chronic effect that applies to any retinoid, ergo keep up the UV protection).

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And yet, there is still a body tanning salon next to my gym.
Makes me want to put a sign up next to their “Specials”: “and free Carcinomas.” Some will sadly say “Wow, free Carcinomas? Sign me up.” If you think this is far-fetched, you have never watched Jay Leno’s Jaywalking.

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Does anyone know how I can donate my skin fibroblasts? Everyone says I have the skin of a 14-year old child. I don’t even do much special for my skin. Maybe it might be critical for understanding how to prevent skin aging.

@Davin8r

Other than Retin-A and Adapalene, (and sunscreen) what are the biggest impact, clinically validated, -skin care compounds / actions you can take / use to prolong the health of skin. I find the entire skin care industry to be just overwhelmingly scammy, everyone has great “anti-aging” claims, but the large volume of crap makes it seem impossible to separate the signal from the noise.

Also - what do you make of the data that suggests Rapamycin may be harmful to skin. See:

But there is also research that suggests rapamycin may not be that good for the skin, increasing inflammatory markers (which is not a good sign), and triggering a breakdown of the extracellular matrix:

"Rapamycin is a long studied molecule affecting mTOR/nutrient signaling and has recently been shown to decrease P16 levels of aging skin21, therefore it was chosen as a positive control of senotherapeutic effect in aging skin models. " … “Rapamycin induced a significant increase in P16 expression, a trend towards increased expression of inflammatory markers (IL6 and IL8), and a significant decrease in Keratin 1 gene expression levels (Fig. 3B). In the dermis, peptide 14 treatment promoted a significant reduction in B2M gene expression, a pro-aging factor, as well as in the expression ofIL8. Rapamycin treatment induced no significant changes in these markers and increased Matrix Metalloproteinase-1 (MMP1) gene expression, indicative of breakdown of the extracellular matrix (Fig. 3C).”

Source:
https://www.biorxiv.org/…/10.1101/2020.10.30.362822v2.full

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No doubt because it does have a lot of scamminess, and I’m a huge skeptic. I only practice medical dermatology, not cosmetic, so I’m of limited use in this regard, although most of my colleagues do at least some cosmetics and a few specialize in it. I’m actually a lot more interested in nutrition/cardiometabolic health than dermatology as a “research hobby” since I came from that background in grad school, so I don’t keep up with a lot of the newest research in cosmetic derm. The mainstay for keeping my own skin youthful, in addition to a retinoid and zinc-based sunscreen+brimmed hat, is periodic treatments with Fraxel laser, which is pricey for most but luckily free for me. The studies with Fraxel and CO2 ablative lasers are pretty solid, at least from what my colleagues tell me and the results I’ve gotten over the years. Botox/dysport are great if you don’t overdo them and can help prevent permanent/static wrinkles on the forehead/glabella/crow’s feet areas if you start them early enough.

There’s also some research w/PRP aka “vampire facial” where you take a sample of your own blood, spin it down to extract platelet rich plasma and then re-inject it on the face for anti-aging purposes, which probably helps given the other generally positive studies with PRP for a variety of conditions, but I haven’t checked the status of recent studies.

I’ve been following the discussioms on rapamycin creams for anti-aging and so far, your guess is as good as mine. I’m on a rapamycin hiatus for now, ever since I had a retinal detachment while using both rapa lotion on my face and taking a weekly 6mg dose. I don’t have any real reason or hypothetical mechanism to explain how rapa could have had anything to do with the retinal detachment, but it’s scared me enough to where I can’t bring myself to use it for now, however irrational it may be :grimacing:.

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My mom has the skin of a 14-year-old with moisturizer, cleanser, retin-A, genetics, exercise (including resistance training), diet, sleep, and sun avoidance. No crazy secret formulas are involved. I assure you her mTOR and acute inflammation is ramped up during all that resistance training.

There’s not much we can glean from here unless you’re quantifying it over time with laser confocal microscopy and crossovers.

This guy has the skin of a 20-year-old at 50s - his secret is an ultra-basic cleanser and moisturizer, he claims he does not do any cosmetic stuff. I also assure you his mTOR and acute inflammation is ramped up with all the protein intake and weightlifting.

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I’m sorry to hear. Let me do a pure guess - do you wear glasses/contacts with high myopia in the eye that experienced retinal detachment?

If that’s the case, I know a few experimental options that may help btw. Very few ophthalmologists are actually aware of experimental long-term retinal detachment prevention but I happen to know quite a bit about the subject if that’s it, as I got my pathological myopia (even worse than high myopia) under control as a trial-of-1 all on my own, supported by 5+ years of vision exams where progression slowed down to a halt.

Yes, extremely myopic (-9) in the left eye with the detachment. -7 in the right eye, which now has many floaters and also has approx 10% of detaching at some point in the future. So you reversed your myopia? And this involved actual reversal of the elongation of the eye?

With the left eye, I had vitreous detachment with 7% chance of retinal tear/detachment which typically happens within the first 6 weeks, if it’s going to happen, per my retina doc. I stopped rapamycin and did fine for a full 8 weeks, decided it had been long enough, restarted rapa and the very next day had the retinal detachment :roll_eyes: Needless to say, a little PTSD there when it comes to the thought of restarting rapa, even if almost certainly just coincidence.

Please tell more. I’m -9.25 and -8.75 with floaters etc.

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To be clear, I did not “reverse” pathological myopia in that eye.

I slowed down the progression in the eye with it to “controlled pathological myopia” and no change in IOP based on intuition for where to look, talking to researchers in the field in a few medical conferences, and then some experimental stuff and compound pharmacy stuff (atropine mix), such that the risk of detachment has appeared to significantly lower over the past several years based on serial vision exams. I can’t give any guarantee (and it involves multiple experimental stuff that insurance probably won’t cover at all with possible risks) that it would prevent or treat your myopia progression or retinal detachment but I can point to what I did personally so you can talk to your optho retina guy following you. I will note I just got the “nothing you can do” routine because these are all purely experimental but he was at least willing to prescribe the compound pharm stuff (intended for children).

It probably won’t prevent trauma-based detachment or your past surgical history-related risks.

Just to make sure I got more pertinent information and risk analysis - based on your stated 15+ years of derm and background (I’m just pure guessing based on patterns - I haven’t ever met you in person for a physical exam, so I’m going on very limited information here), I presume you are routinely engaging in resistance training with elevated IOP? I also suspect there’s a 20% shot you are on AREDS2 and already maybe ~50/50 had fundoscopy showing early signs of age-related macular degeneration (>age 50)?

Has anyone been to Japan…and witnessed how heliophobic (sun exposure anxiety) they are? But when you take a good look at older Japanese…their skin is marvellous! They are fully covered even in sweltering heat. In Vietnam, anyone that works out in the sun, is fully covered, head to toe…you just see their eyes, even though it’s 30+C.

It’s not rocket science folks…no need for any fancy mouse studies. AVOID THE SUN by way of protecting your exposed skin.

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My IOP has always been normal in both eyes, and still is. My eye docs say I don’t have any activity or exercise restrictions, including resistance training. Hopefully they know what they’re doing!

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I’m surprised they cleared you without at least protective eye gear for physical activity. Or did they mention it? Or was it something more specific? Was it the O.D. or an M.D.?

Can you share more about your pertinent past medical history, family history, and optho history just for reference (feel free to deidentify or not share as you wish)? I suspect at my estimate of your age (again working with limited info here), you likely have a decent amount of family clues in terms of family eye history risks where it may be worth doing CLIA-certified whole genome sequencing. This sort of depends, as I’m assuming you already had a good chance of confirmed age-related macular degeneration (and maybe your 1-degree relatives too).

That’s part of the issue because one of the multiple things I did is I had to go to mainland China (it was a “tier 1 city” with a trusted researcher at a registered trial, not a “backalley” deal, so it’s much less risky than it sounds and unfortunately a lot of radical trials are in mainland China due to their myopia epidemic - plus my other eye has perfect vision and no myopia) to get experimental gene therapy for my specific genetic issue and there’s still no guarantee it changed it enough, but it may have contributed to prevention among the many other experimental medication related interventions I threw at it. However, my dad is very familiar with gene and cell-based therapy since he literally managed clinical trials.

Sorry to hear that, but I don’t think it has anything to do with rapamycin.
I’ve have myopia from an early age and it stabilized at ~-4 diopters. So I have been aware of the increased chance of retina detachment. At age 62 I had cataract surgery, also caused by too much sun, and intraocular lens transplants. Intraocular lens transplants increase the risk of retinal detachment by ~1-2%. They are great by the way.
So I visit an ophthalmologist regularly. I have a small tear in my right eye retina so small it might have been missed in an earlier exam, so I don’t know exactly when it occurred.
After 8 plus months of relatively high doses of rapamycin 5-20mg. nothing has changed.
“The prevalent risks of glaucoma were higher in myopic adults, and risks of chorioretinal abnormalities such as retinal detachment, chorioretinal atrophy and lacquer cracks increased with severity of myopia”
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1475-1313.2005.00298.x