Experiences starting Rapamycin for first time

Thanks HigoMe33, that is some good advice. Yes, I was thinking that the gfj added an extra variable I wasn’t sure about. Buying Biocon from India wasn’t too expensive or difficult - and about $1 per pill (which is $20 a fortnight for 20mg eventually). The main issue was it was stuck in Customs for a month while I got my Dr to write the right things for them - she still has most of the order in her office, as officially she had to take it and only give me 3 months supply at a time. Luckily she is pretty on board with it all (tho she did read me a big list of disclaimers just to be sure).

My only concern is that extra spike in the biocon that I saw in the test someone here did. But is impossible to get it here any other way that I can see. I’d have to have a lung transplant to get the $800 a week subsidy for the official stuff (which the appear to still be selling here for the pre-patent expiry price!).

I might stop the other stuff (throw out my NMN, etc) and try the EVOO with it. How much EVOO do you take?

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Yes, I might avoid gfj for now then.

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I notice many are taking it weekly. I was thinking fortnightly sounded like the best option. If rapa has a half-life of 2.5 days (according to that medscape link from mike666) then in 1 week you’d be down to about 14%, which is quite a long way from zero, so would run the risk of still activating Mtor2 e.g. if you were on 10mg weekly, you’d still be effectively on 1.4mg end of week. with fortnightly dose you’d be down to just 2%, or 0.2mg.

No idea if the half-life of rapa is quite as perfectly exponential as that of course, but certainly would be a big diff between taking weekly/fortnightly.

Why do most people take weekly? (Not that many of the researchers/experts who are taking seem to be weekly also)

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Just doing some research on GlycanAge and TruAge. Hard to know which ones are the best - they are all definitely not cheap! How did you choose these ones? And what is the difference between them? After reading their sites they appear to both be epigenetic age tests, but you got big differences on them - so presumably they are not measuring the same things. How do you know which one is the ‘correct’ one?

Of course, if I were you I’d be calling the 37 yr one as the ‘correct’ one :slight_smile:

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If you want a free test, use the Aging.ai blood test.

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A weekly dose is what the Mannick study in 2014 found was safe and effective in humans. It’s posted in various places in these forums, but essentially 5mg once weekly was the most effective dose of three regimes tried.

Those who take rapa every fortnight seem to be taking larger does. 20mg or more. At those levels you need two weeks to cleanse it from your system, generally speaking. People who take these large doses say they do so because in the mice studies more rapa leads to more health extension and more life extension. And even more seems to lead to even more.

Thus, some experts suggest you should take the largest dose your body will tolerate without side effects. Indeed, many here have said that they keep increasing the dose over time with their upper limit being whatever causes side effects.

So you have two philosophies here.

One is to follow what has been tested as safe and effective in humans and trust the long road, where this use over years and decades will accomplish what is desired in the cells. Dr. Attia and Dr. Kaeberlein are both around 6-8mg week last time I checked. This approach seems to be followed by more people in middle age.

The other is to work up to the largest dose your body can handle, dosing at a probably two week interval. Several doctors seem to follow this approach. In my observation they are older than average, in their 70s and 80s. My guess is that they feel they have little to lose and lots to gain from high doses. Also, one of these doctors (Green?) takes a drug with competing properties on the off week; thus his two-week pattern.

Finally, you asked about the half-life’s. It seems that moderate doses get to a low enough level in one week, while high doses need two weeks to get to the same low level. Note that some people say it’s not a week, but 6 days, or 10 days, or 12 days. As humans we’ve adopted a weekly schedule, so dosing in weekly terms is most convenient and easiest to maintain.

Again, I’m not a doctor, just a close reader who has been consuming this content constantly for the past little while. Everyone is experimenting on this front, so as they say in the States, you do you.

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This is good advice!

The two free tests that people around here most often mention are the website Aging.ai and what I believe is called the Levine Phenotypal Age calculator.

Both have data supporting them.

Aging.ai is based on “thousands” of data points, which is simultaneously a lot and not very many.

The Levine calculator has been published as being statistically reliable, as I understand it. For Levine here is a post I made that clarifies what is needed: A Friendly, Biological Age Reduction Competition? - #60 by HigoMe33

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There are limitations to the biomarker biological age algorithms although I think they are better than the epigenetic age systems.

For example they tend to treat increased Albumin as generally a good thing. However, over a point increased Albumin is associated with greater mortality (possibly because it may link to obesity). At the same time if you are losing weight your Albumin may go down whilst doing so. However, it can often be healthy to lose weight.

Similarly Levine uses RDW and MCV wanting both to be lower. However, if you initially start creating smaller Red Blood Cells and hence MCV goes down RDW as a consequence will go up.

So a more subtle approach is really needed which does not simply live or die by either Levine or aging.ai.

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Thanks for comments HigoMe33, very good summary. I guess I’ll start weekly and see how I go.

I note Dr Green I think and others recommend getting blood tests regularly for the sirolimus. Is there a particular level of the stuff that is being looked for in the blood? i.e. an ideal level to reach after the dose? I haven’t read anywhere what the purpose of the blood test was exactly.

Interesting. On InsideTrackers Inner age, which I’ve been using, I get deducted 7 years for my lower Albumin - is the main reason why they give me a higher InnerAge (55) than my actual age (52). Yet on the Levine test I seem to get 43 (although I had to put in an average value for RDW as couldn’t get this from any of my blood tests).

These tests do seem to vary wildly!

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It is quite complex. I like Levine’s formula because it is easy to follow the logic. I think, however, it is best to try looking at all of the biomarkers and try to understand what they mean and how they may be improved.

I have not looked at Inner Age. It strikes me they are putting perhaps too much weight on Albumin. What is your Albumin level?

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People test their blood for Sirolimus for two reasons:

  1. To make sure Sirolimus is there. Those who purchase from India are sometimes concerned they do not have the real thing. A Sirolimus test soon after dosing can let you know exactly how much you’re absorbing. Also, people might test after dosing to find out how much rapa their body absorbs.

  2. To make sure Sirolimus is not there. You want your Sirolimus level to be as close to zero as possible before you dose again. This is called your trough. A period of time with no Sirolimus in your system allows MTOR1 to be mediating growth and development and allows MTOR2 to remain normalized—that’s what I’ve gained from the videos and discussions.

I don’t think everyone does test their blood Sirolimus.

It seems that if you’re an average weight man taking 5, 6, 7mg once a week without grapefruit juice, or an average sized woman similarly taking 3, 4, or 5mg you’re probably fine; your levels are probably zeroish after a week, although that’s obviously a generalization.

Some say that the presence of side effects like diarrhea or mouth sores indicates that you’re suppressing your immune system through MTORC2 suppression, which suggests that your trough is too high. Again, a test right before a weekly dose could tell you a lot.

Higher doses tend to correspond to fortnight dosings to ensure the trough is low enough, and essentially zero before dosing again.

Other blood tests people get while on Rapamycin include blood glucose and triglycerides. These can be affected by this medication. Also someone somewhere mentioned concerns about iron deficiency, but I don’t recall seeing that often, so I’m not sure if that’s a real issue or not.

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Excellent reply HigoMe33 - we all differ and although this group provides a lot of great information and perspectives - we all have different body and phenotypes and the only way to truly know is to test yourself at trough level and post dose - preferably 1-2 hours after.

Week of 7/25/2022 I tried just testing after my dose for t-max - 1.5 hours – because I was being cheap and didn’t want to ask for two blood draws within less than two hours. Here is my results after taking 8mg sirolimus and 1 red grapefruit squeezed into a cup as my pill chaser. t-max 58 ng/mL a 7 times multiplication of the drug and a warning from the lab doing the test - too high! And, 3-days of diarrhea - not fun.

Next time I did a blood draw a few weeks later 8/8/2022 my trough after one week (at I assume at around 30 ng/m) was 2.2 ng/mL and I used just 6 mg sirolimus and again1 red grapefruit squeezed into a cup as a chaser to the pills.

Blood draw 1.5 hours later my t-max was 31 ng/mL , so closer to a 5 times multiplication. No diarrhea.

Here is this past week’s test 11/10/2022 - my trough taken 10 days after my last dose 0.7 ng/mL much lower with the extra 3 days and 6mg sirolimus and 1 red grapefruit squeezed into a cup as a chaser to the pills. t-max 31.8 ng/mL found the level that I wanted - and no diarrhea.

So I have found my sweet spot to get to the 30’s ng/mL it is for me 6mg sirolimus and 1 red grapefruit squeezed into a cup as a chaser to the pills. Waited 10 days between dosage. So not once a week or once every 2 weeks - I am dosing every 10 days – it puts me at the area I want in MTOR1 reduction and not knocking out MTOR2.

Respected researchers are saying 20-30 ng/mL is needed to get through the brain blood barrier. I have been in this range of 30-ish and higher at times since April. I have retested this week GlycanAge - blood test and TruMe -spit test to see if higher dosage is affecting the measured biological age. Will compare to my tests at 6mg and no GFJ. Slow but sure self-testing. I will be doing a DXA and Body composition muscle and fat scan on Dec. 5th. To see what my body is BMI - bone density and such. I will share here.

This all said - everything right now points to sirolimus providing major health benefits and my own qualitive self-assessment of physical health, memory, strength, lean body weight and euphoria tells me that it is working. Would this be as noticeable in a person age 50 years or younger - maybe not… You might well be getting health benefits, but it might not be as obvious as it is to someone who already has looked into the abyss - tasted it a bit and then stepped back away from functional decline. My N=1 :wink:

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My Albumin is 3.7g/dL. This graph shows me low for my age.

That said, I have plenty of muscle mass and no indicators of inflammation. I guess these models are based on averages of course…

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Thanks HigoMe33 for the detailed info! Being based in NZ am not so sure how I’d get a test (tho I did se RapAdmin mentioned some reasonable priced tests.

One good thing is I just took my 3rd dose today - 2mg this time. But I stopped most of my other supplements some days ago and… no hypo buzzing or strange sell & taste side effects this time - in fact didn’t notice anything. So looks like there was some interactions going on (or I’m just adapting to the dose).

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Wow Agetron - that is great detail. 20-30ng to get thro the blood brain barrier sounds a good target. I will have to see what my options are for getting some tests - good to have a target to aim for!

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Your Albumin is slightly low yes. However, Albumin can vary for example these are my figures this year (per litre)
42 46 45 44 46 48 47 47 46 44.14 43 44.13 40.5 44.22 45.08 39 41.73 8% 45.12 41 40 38 40 44.3 42.9 41.09 40.45 38.97 39.27 40 38.54 42 38.7 40.39 43

The last one is 43. These are by different labs and with different delays between sample taking and test being performed.

One possible reason my 43 figure is higher is that I went to the pub had two pints of cider and ate two packets of dry roast peanuts. (that was after a salad in a restaurant with 0.5l of red wine and 2 pints of lager)

Otherwise I have been restricting my food intake with a view to reducing visceral fat.

I don’t have an information as to how quickly the albumin dynamic shifts and I know that higher levels (over 53 mg/L) indicate potentially higher mortality.

However, to add 7 years onto your biological age does not look right anyway. 10 mg/dL according to Levine is about 3.5 years and yours looks more like 3.

One advantage I have from the weekly testing is that I can make short term changes and see if there is any impact. I take the view that understanding the meaning of biomarkers and what can be done to change them is a key thing for improving biochemistry.

I do get stressed about the unreliability of some blood testing, however. I am aiming to deal with that by going to a lab tomorrow at 10am to give a sample which will immediately be tested. Sadly because of this I cannot do what I normally do on a Sunday afternoon which is to drink a range of alcoholic drinks as I want to have a really good quality test result which is not skewed by alcohol. I am also fasting tomorrow until after the test and have strapped on a CGM to see if my glucose handling has improved during the year.

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Thanks for your detailed answer John.

I’ve had two tests now with similar results (3.9 and 3.7). Not sure why its lower. I already do all the stuff they recommend (eat protein - nuts, protein shakes, healthy diet, don’t drink too much - avg 1 std drink each evening).

But its certainly been on a downward trend. The first data point on this chart is in 2009 - 13 years ago when it was 4.7.

image

I guess I’ll see if the Sirolimus makes a difference!

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I would suggest that this is something worth investigating further. What, however, is your CRP figure? That, unless you have an infection, is a good indicator of senescent cell load. My own IL-10 hypothesis of aging considers senescent cell load to be a key indicator of biological age (higher load, higher biological age) Senescent cells are, however, patchy. I hypothesise that this is because IL-10 does not travel that far.

As a further thought what is ALP (Alkaline Phosphatase) and Creatinine? Albumin can be down either because the kidneys let too much escape or the liver is not producing enough.

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Hi John, last blood tests showed:
CRP 0.3 mg/L
ALP 90 U/L
Creatinine 89 umol/L

I must admit I have not much idea what the ideal values of these are. I’ve just been plugging them into models like the Levine calculator. Are these good numbers?