Dermo-electroporation for Aging Skin Health and Rejuvenation

#54

I have to say, when I read this my eyes rolled around and the though of “not another device” came to mind…

I have a Dremel, and good cordless drills. There has to be some sort of “microdermabrasion” options for these device for the males in the audience…

Alas, ChatGPT did not come through:

Short answer: I was unable to find any consumer-oriented handheld microdermabrasion device that is explicitly marketed for body skin exfoliation using a standard rotary tool (such as a Dremel handset) or a “Dremel-style” spinning accessory designed for skin. Most at-home microdermabrasion devices are dedicated beauty/skin-care tools rather than repurposed rotary tools.

I mean I’m all in on new tech, but another sanding tool (ah, but this time optimized for skin…) seems like overkill. So - I’m not bought into it as of now.

I’m only half-kidding when I say that I think there is a huge unmet need out there for microdermabrasion drill bits and Dremel attachments for men getting into skin care :wink:

Thanks for the DEP Use instructions - good to get a quick summary!

On the issue of DEP with Radiesse - sure, chatGPT is frequently wrong. But I did query all the other AIs - Gemini, Claude, and Grok - and they all said basically the same thing. At the same time, I do agree with you that these systems are giving huge weights to the RCT studies that are published in great papers, so they are going to lag in their information and summaries in areas where there isn’t that much research, so they could all be off on this topic.

It would be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons of your DEP approach with Radiesse, vs. it done by a traditional mesotherapy needle approach and see if there is much difference (or perhaps if someone has / will try both approaches), it would be an interesting comparison.

On the botox example - I checked on Grok and they came back very positive on the DEP approach to doing botox. So yes - this could be another case where the AI systems are biased towards a conservative interpretation of the data. Have you ever tried the DEP approach to botox? Grok suggested it’s more common in Asia and Europe. The idea of “do it yourself” needle-less botox would seem to appeal to a broad market if it actually works.

4 Likes
#55

Radiesse isn’t suitable for classic mesotherapy. Hyperdiluted Radiesse should only be placed with cannulas using a fan technique and it’s not a DIY procedure and requires proper training and solid anatomical knowledge because serious complications can occur (nodules or granulomas or severe risks from accidental injection into a blood vessel, which can lead to vision abnormalities, blindness, stroke, or permanent scarring).

I’ve looked into the DEP approach with Radiesse and I’m still on the fence. Logically it shouldn’t work, yet there are people like @medaura and the Canadian doctor she referenced reporting success. I’m getting a DEP device next week and plan to try it with the original Radiesse. Worst case I’m out 94 eur. Best case it works, and I’ll be happy instead of trying to explain why.

3 Likes
#56

Believe it or not that’s how I felt — not another device!—because for the first time I feel satiated with devices. That little thing is basically a toy though, both cheap and little and can fit in a drawer. From using tretinoin my skin is prone to peeling so it’s nice to have as insurance if I’m shedding hard and need to look presentable that day. But it’s not absolutely necessary by any means. If you can’t be bothered to buy and use one, the next best thing are those makeup removal wipes from Burt’s Bees or similar: you wipe your face with them and they pull away dead skin cells, as opposed to merely rinsing it off with face wash.

1 Like
#57

You’re very correct about the nonnegotiable need for precise technique with hyperdilute radiesse. I learned a lot about it from a webinar that I actually can’t link to as it was downloaded from somewhere or other but yes, cannula or judicious combo of cannula and needle, fanning, linear retrograde technique etc. When I said mesotherapy I didn’t mean to imply any delivery technique would do, merely that it needs to be injected superficially. To me the DEP has been amazing in that it moots nearly all these technical requirements. Of course the traditional way allows for more precise application, focusing on problem areas better. But to me it’s more important to be able to apply it evenly all over my face and neck so losing some precision isn’t a big deal. I do wish I could use undiluted radiesse for strategic volume placement here and there but so far it hasn’t amounted to a need. In 5-10 years I’ll probably bite the bullet and pay to have it done. Meanwhile I should think Sculptra (PLLA) should work with DEP and offer something similar.

2 Likes
#58

Oh and I wouldn’t dare use DEP with Botox as it’s irreversible and takes months to degrade. The only place I’d really want Botox at all would be the muscles around the side of my mouth. Overactive muscles there when I smile is why I have a bit of a nasolabial fold going on. But that needs precision injection otherwise I could end up drooling and slurping on my soup for months on end if I get it wrong. Also Botox seems overly cosmetic to me, doesn’t do anything to improve skin quality. Biostimulators on the other hand truly rejuvenate.

1 Like
#59

OK, @medaura , I took the DEP machine out of the box and tested it out today. I filled up about 30% of the syringe and connected all the parts and turned it on.

Everything seemed to be working fine. The product seems to be of reasonably good quality, although the “out of box” experience is a little lacking given there are not even basic instructions on how to configure, or use the device. I come from a product development background and it always blows me a way that companies will spend thousands of hours to design, engineer and manufacture a device but won’t spend a few hours on including instructions on how to actually use and configure a product.

The syringe plugs into the rectangular part of the hand-held device (turn the syringe 90 degrees to lock it in), and then the arrows (at least one of them) seems to do a good job of minutely controlling the dispensing of the liquid in the syringe by gradually depressing the plunger part of the syringe.

Do you know what the other controls on the handheld device mean? What does “L/H” do? (see the last photo below, the “on/off” is self explanatory). One arrow seemed to work for dispensing the liquid very carefully from the syringe, and that seemed to work well. But the other controls are a bit of a mystery.

Photos below:

PXL_20251025_211814943
PXL_20251025_2118149432268×4032 263 KB

PXL_20251025_211822722
PXL_20251025_2118227224032×2268 351 KB

PXL_20251025_212119021
PXL_20251025_2121190214032×2268 435 KB

PXL_20251025_212027736.PORTRAIT
PXL_20251025_212027736.PORTRAIT4032×2268 180 KB

3 Likes
#60

If you figure out how it works I’ll probably buy it as well. Does it feel flimsy or is it well built? Could those arrows regulate jet power? More/less or stronger/weaker?

1 Like
#62

I’m confused - this DEP is not the same DEP (dermo electroporation device) that was discussed earlier? Or is it?

#63

All the same. I’m just sharing photos of the one I received and have started using. It’s the Chinese knock-off of the Italian Mattioli Engineering DEP product.

The quality of the build seems pretty good from initial inspection. We’ll see how it works over the coming weeks, and I’ll report how it goes.

#64

If it’s the same are there other parts to it that you did not include in pictures?

#65

I took all the parts from what you see in these photos: Dermo-electroporation for Aging Skin Health and Rejuvenation - #43 by RapAdmin

and put them together (but in this post, I’m just showing the hand-held section that plugs into the big oval “base” of the device.

1 Like
#66

Alibaba has a video of it:

#67

Yes - that looks like the same one I have.

#68

It looks like generation 3 DEP (which I’m considering) doesn’t have any attachments (like a syringe). What generation is the one you received? Trying to figure out the difference. Is there any advantage of having a syringe instead of applying serums directly to skin?

The seller sent the following brief description: DEP Superconducting Water Light is a faster, deeper-penetrating alternative to traditional iontophoresis, eliminating the pain, inflammation, and risks of pigmentation. It addresses the issue of cosmetic-grade products being used for injections in cosmetic procedures, and the prohibition of medical instruments from being used in cosmetic procedures. DEP’s high-intensity electroporation technology enhances cell membrane permeability, instantly infusing various cellular nutrients.

The seller also told me that an instruction manual will be included.

#69

Have you already tried your DEP unit on your neck? How did you like it?

#70

I have no idea what generation my device is (or if there are even generations); or if there are indeed any differences or if they are just different marketing efforts to distinguish themselves from competitors. There seem to be a huge number of varieties of DEP devices on Alibaba and other sources. Given the proliferation of these devices, and the lack of any independent high quality evaluations of these devices, it’s probably a crap shoot in terms of what you get. If a company is claiming they are “generation 3” of the device, then the natural question is what is different and how are those differences going to be meaningful benefits for you?

I’ve only tried the device once. I like the integrated syringe control because it allows one-handed operation, and it directs the flow of the liquid directly into the area of the conductive areas of the device. It also seems like it could be beneficial (the one-handed operation) because you can then lie down and deliver the liquid on your skin when its horizontal (and therefore not so likely to run down your face or neck and out of the area of interest). And the arrow button works well… I understand now how the arrows work, the back arrow is to reset the small platform that pushes the plunger of the syringe, so after using it you reset it back to the starting point, reload the syringe, put it back in the device, and then the other arrow slowly compresses the syringe. It works well for slowly controlling the flow of liquid to the front of the device when you want it.

But again, there seem to be many different iterations on these devices and it’s very hard to tell which would be “better”. Here are a few different variations that I found after a quick search. They are all called “DEP” devices, but without any independent 3rd party analysis it’s really hard to be confident that any of them do what they claim they do. I’m still very unsure of their efficacy. If I were you, I’d wait until more people give their judgement on these current products we are using. After a few months of use, perhaps we can give more feedback on effectiveness of the ones we have. Perhaps we are as positive as Medaura or perhaps not.

3 Likes
#71

@RapAdmin you are supposed to put the plunger of the syringe inside that applicator tube and screw it sideways. That done, the < button pushes foward; the > retracts — or maybe vice versa. The middle L/H button initiates an automatic sequence of forward pushes at set reasonable intervals. The little tube attached to the disposable membrane goes into the opening of the syringe so that when the liquid is dispensed from the syringe via these buttons pushing the plunger, it can get delivered via that membrane covering the head of the appliance.

But… all of this is nonsense for me in practice because it gets in the way. It’s far more natural to completely skip these steps and in fact skip the disposable membrane because you don’t gain anything practically by having the liquid pushed through at these exact mini dosages. What I do is I use a syringe with my left hand to squirt a bit of liquid on a part of my face, and I use the DEP probe with my right hand to rub it in (I’m right handed.)

The point of the membranes is to provide a sterile environment if you’re using it on multiple people, say if you’re a provider with clients. The idea is to not have the electrode head touch many people’s skin and potentially pick up pathogens or whatnot (which shouldn’t even be a concern if you use a basic hygiene protocol). If you’re only using it on yourself and maybe your partner, skip the disposable membrane + tube, skip the dosage applicator, as it’s a bit awkward and cumbersome to use well on oneself (I can imagine it being much easier to use on a third party though) and just do it straight up. It’s very simple. Then clean the probe when you’re done with a gauze soaked in alcohol or whatever the manufacturer recommends.

Does it make sense? Of course you’re free to use it the other way but you don’t gain anything and then need to keep buying disposable parts. Besides the application takes longer. I tried it that way a couple of times then ditched it in favor of the streamlined protocol I detailed earlier.

2 Likes
#72

@RapAdmin watch this video to see how he does it. His model of the equipment doesn’t even have the bulky applicator appendage and he doesn’t need it. I apply my hyper dilute radiesse exactly as you see him do on the video. Nothing is lost in terms of efficacy. Doesn’t matter if my finger pushes out uneven amounts of liquid. It takes time for it to be properly absorbed, it takes many many passes of the DEP probe. His video is sped up and I don’t even think he covers the whole process. Expect to give your face a good half hour of rubbing around to get 70-80% or more of a ~5 ml concoction absorbed. The rate limiting part is not the pace at which liquid is pushed out of the syringe, but the pace at which you’re rubbing it in with the probe / electrode. Does that make sense?

2 Likes
#73

This stage with attached syringe was eliminated in DEP generation 3 as I understand.

2 Likes
#74

Not yet. The machine is arriving today. Will try to do it today with HA just to see how it works. Will report back.

3 Likes