17alpha-estradiol at rhesus monkey equivalent doses to the ITL trial causes fairly dramatic feminization: 30-38% testicular atrophy at 12 weeks of treatment. Human equivalent for 150lb human is ~4.5mg per day. I wonder how Bryan and others came up with their dosing regimen.
I suspect you could use estriol (or perhaps other estrogens and/or testosterone/LH/FSH) to titrate the dose appropriately. Basically do as much as possible before seeing testosterone/LH/FSH drop. This is similar to increasing dose of rapamycin until seeing other markers like lipids or insulin resistance deteriorate.
I also am not sure what the reasoning would be for anything other than daily dosing. It doesn’t seem like there’s a cumulative effect similar to rapamycin’s MTORC2 inhibition that you would risk with daily dosing.
From the study in monkeys we should stay way lower than 11.5mg/day. My guess is until we see no increase in beta-estradiol:
“However, it should be noted that the dosing regimens employed in our monkey trials would scale to much higher human doses than have previously been tested. For reference, scaling the 0.20 and 0.30 mg/kg/day monkey doses to a 90 kg man, the current average mass for a man over 20 years of age in the United States, would result in daily dosing levels ranging from 11.5 to 17.3 mg/day, which is roughly 6–8 times higher than the aforementioned Phase 1 clinical trial in men”
I’m not sure how they calculated this. Using standard conversion formulas you end up with ~4.5mg whether you start from mice dosing or rhesus dosing (as expected, for a 70kg man). I suspect this is an error in the paper.
However, both of our 17α-estradiol trial doses elicited significant feminization to include testicular atrophy, increased circulating estrogens, and suppressed circulating androgens and gonadotropins.
Perhaps it’s a semantic issue, but when you consider that exogenous testosterone does 3 of the 4 things they classify as feminizing, I think they shouldn’t cast their data in such a strong light.
Significant feminization to me would mean things like gynecomastia, altered facial and body hair, altered fat distribution, or feminized behavior.
Just wanting to report my findings with Ell-Cranell (250mcg/mL of 17 alpha estradiol).
Every day for 4 months 2.5ml in face and scalp (626mcg/day= 4,4mg/week). A possible confounder was Boron with 3 mg daily before the experiment and 3 mg during the first month of the experiment but the last 3 months without it.
I would conclude that these doses are super safe and we need to ramp up to at least 8 mg (Bryan dose).
No visible improvements in any blood biomarker. In fact it was a little bit worse but I changed so many things it’s not possible to draw any conclusion.
Consider testing other estrogens as well. One of the researchers involved with the ITP thinks the positive effects are due to the eventual conversion to estriol (through some as of yet unknown pathway in male mice and humans). This is also why they tested another estriol precursor, 16alpha-hydroxiestradiol. I suspect serum levels will still be near undetectable for other estrogens, but worth verifying. DUTCH urine testing also measures other estrogens in urine, could pick up any changes.
Yes I actually plan to test with 17alpha-estradiol cream as well. I took a baseline DUTCH + serum estrogens. Won’t be as clean as @Viracocha as I do take enclomiphene and am testing an aromatase inhibitor. Still, I expect estriol to increase on the DUTCH and possibly serum.
I was testing beta estradiol because of the macaque study where even if they only took alpha estradiol the monkeys were feminized and their beta estradiol was really high.
That test you mentioned sounds like a goldmine of data!!. I am going to look for this in Europe. Please, tell us what you learn!
Also, where do you buy the cream? To compare costs.
I purchased from apohealth.de. When I purchased I calculated it would cost $1300/year for 4.5mg/day. I plan to start at 500mcg per day and titrate up to 4.5mg looking for any side effects or feminization. Then I’ll test and titrate down as needed based on estrogen levels.
Some Chinese peptide suppliers also offer 17alpha-estradiol at a much more economical price, but require very large purchases. Check underground steroid forums for more info.
Yes makes sense to check estradiol, though ideally you don’t see an effect. My interpretation of the paper is that the researchers believe the increase in estradiol is driving the feminization and that the beneficial effects can be achieved without feminization via a lower dose. Ie, the increase in beta-estradiol is not responsible for the longevity effects. This is further evidenced by using the estriol precursor and seeing the same results in mice.
Have you asked about samples? Look in the fine print for MOQ or samples or just contact and ask. All the API suppliers will ship a small sample if you tell them you need to test the product before placing a larger order.
Here is one example. 10g minimum, which is enough to last you 6 years. Get a sample, send it out for testing, proceed. Testing and shipping will be your biggest expenses, but you’re probably only out $400 or so for your multi-year supply.
Hubei Vanz doesn’t produce the best quality peptides, but that’s harder than powders. There are plenty of other options if you search the CAS.
I’m interested in 17 Alpha Estradiol as a potential longevity option. I would appreciate any updates from men who have done it. What are the longer term effects have been especially considering that it is over 6 months since any updates in this thread. It looks like it is possible to get ELL-Cranell with Alphatradiol from Germany. Have there been any feminization effects? Thanks in advance.
@DrEcsta It’s been a while since you last posted, hope all is well with you, but this thread is in desperate need of an update from you (since you were the pioneer in researching 17 Alpha Estradiol). Your input on this subject would be very much appreciated.
Kelman, Dr. Ecsta’s last post was over two and a half years ago. Others have asked him for updates just like you have and received no response. So, I think it’s safe to say that he has moved on to other things.
This thread seems to have great potential, but so far there have been no clear reports from anyone on methods and results.
17 Alpha Estradiol seems to be one of the biggest known longevity internventions for men (Rapa, Acarbose and 17 A E). It’s unfortunate that this group has not found a good way to implement it. I will be in Europe in March and will go to Germany if necessary to get some Ell-Cranell Alfatradiol which is available over the counter there.
I just want to remind the thread that 16 alpha-hydroxyestradiol was earlier discovered to be estriol and the lifespan increase effects in the ITP (15% in males) were comparable to 17 Alpha Estradiol.
Check this thread out:
And the alfastradiol hair products are A. loaded with solvents like isopropanol and various excipients so it wouldn’t be ideal for systemic use B. have extremely low doses of the 17 A E 2 inside it (not even close to ITP), and C. are meant to be applied to the scalp which is an extremely poor area for systemic administration. Very pure and low in excipient/solvent estriol gel would be much easier to aim for. Or obviously getting prescription estriol gel/caps would be best.
And finally, I found some info earlier showing comparative absorption rates in different areas of administration:
I wrote Dr. Ecsta directly by email and he responded back:
I was using 17 Alpha Estradiol for about six months and have since discontinued it.
I did not experience any specific side effects. Regarding metabolic health, all subsequent comprehensive tests showed normal results. I am currently 41 years old, and my VO2 MAX(~55) and other fitness indicators are consistent with someone in their early to mid-thirties. I am in excellent overall health.