Here is my talk with Dr Antoun of Prolon (FMD) exploring whether fasting mimicking can be the answer to visceral fat loss without losing muscle. Lots of interesting topics are discussed. Try to ignore the poor sound quality to pick out the gems here.
My diet practices have been changed by this talk (and getting ready for it). Today I’m on day 2 of the FMD…and I’ve already cut way back on protein while I waited for my kit to arrive. I am so pleased to have finally listened to this advice which I have been receiving for years. But now I’m ready to receive it.
I listened to the interview. I’m not convinced that the FMD can prevent muscle loss, some loss is inevitable, all organs and tissue shrink while doing FMD in the words of VAlter Longo. Also, after the 3rd day glycogen is likely depleted together with the water bound to it, so muscle shrinkage is natural, to an extent.
In my n=1 case, I observed fat+muscle loss, 2.5 kg on average in 5 days. About 6 pounds. I have little or no visceral fat but the adipose pannicle around my waist would almost be lost, or totally, depending on the starting adiposity. It may work even better with visceral fat.
I did 13 cycles of theFMD in 4 years and always gained the weight back in about 3 weeks, except last time, due to my adherence to a low carb diet.
The discussion on IGF1 is tricky, the only time I had my IGF1 measured was very low, even though I exercised (with production of local IGF1 called MGF1) and ate a substantial amount of animal protein, rich in methionine which should increase IGF1. IGF1-R (receptor) may be high when IGF1 is low, a little like total and free testosterone.
It has not been discussed, but the FMD is a sure, natural way to inhibit mTOR, especially the lowcarb variant of it. One FMD every month would be an ideal frequency to this purpose, but then I’m afraid there would not be adequate recovery and the phenotype would become too much skinny.
It is not necessary to buy the Prolon box, although it’s surely convenient. I always designed my FMD on my own, tracking calories and macros with cronometer, this may turn out to be advantageous when practicing FMD frequently. Longo suggests 3, 4 times max per year in healthy, exercising individuals.
Then I’m not convinced you actually did the same thing and had the same effect as you’d get with Prolon. For instance, did you replicate the glycerol drink that you’re supposed to have on days 2-5? This is supposed to be critical for avoiding lean mass loss. Also, when and how did you measure your body composition changes? If assessed immediately after the protocol, your glycogen stores would still be depleted and would throw off the lean mass assessment.
I’ve done both the boxed Prolon and a DIY version many times. I universally had worse results with DIY and found it much harder to stick with. Even the boxed version is a looong 5 days, though.
I’d like to see a study combining Prolon with a GLP drug to take away the hunger aspect during the fast. This would make the fast SO much easier, but would the increased insulin output caused by the GLP drug interfere with the putative benefits of the FMD?
I tried to replicate the glycerol drink even though it gave me loose bowels. Probably it was not the same formulation, I lost weight anyway. I would like to see the weight loss data of a representative sample of normal-weight individuals, maybe there is some dataset in the 40 studies cited by Dr. Antoun.
I just used a scale and visual assessment of abdominal adiposity.
I trust your report, I can say nothing since I never tried the Prolon box.
The risk I’m afraid would be episodes of hypoglycemia. IGF1 signaling without the glucose and leucin signals would probably do little or no harm, at least conceptually, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Hunger is bad at times, although I noticed that from the 4th day aversion to food is triggered, at least with the DIY version. All those zucchini and other undressed vegetables, the stomach just cannot stand it any longer!
I agree that less hunger would make the experience more pleasant and the adherence improved.
Exactly, the drink is supposed to be to prevent muscle loss.
And i imagine any supplements or medicines MIGHT interfere with the results. No idea though? I’d be curious about glp making it easier!
I’ve done it aprox 12 times… I almost died the first time, but it became much easier after 3 ish times. I still DREAD doing it but it’s very doable to me at this point.
I too felt better after the first couple of times. Unfortunately, the body keeps having an aversion to it as in your case. An act of will is always necessary. I wish it were easier.
That’s really interesting. I never wore a CGM during my Prolon fast, but always suspected those soups would be super high-glycemic given the ingredients. Clearly the temp spikes don’t interfere with the overall effect of the 5 day FMD, but what I’m not clear on is how much and for how long the GLP drugs increase insulin secretion (is it just increased after meals, or do they raise fasting insulin as well, and if so by how much?). Time to do some digging…
It depends, after the peak comes the trough, with increased insulin the trough would be theoretically deeper and potentially in hypoglicaemic territory. But the interactions could be different.
Risk of hypoglycemia from GLP meds is very low because the increased insulin secretion is glucose-dependent and goes away without a stimulus. They also slow down gastric emptying, so that in itself should make the Prolon meals less insulinogenic.
Seems to me like GLP agonist + Prolon could really be a winning combination. It would be great to get Dr Antoun’s take on this. @Joseph_Lavelle , is he open to any follow-up questions?
As an aside … do not check labs immediately after doing prolon. We did, the morning after the 5 days … figured we’d have great labs, both of us WBC’s 14-15K, HsCRP>10 … neutrophilia. Anyway, I think there is a bit of an inflammatory part of all this. I’ve heard others with similar results. Have others experienced this?
It didn’t happen to me 10 days after the FMD. Although I have some doubts that lingering effects might have caused the very low IGF1 and fasting insulin values reported.
Wow that is really interesting and a bit scary. Did you drink the hibiscus teas each day? I wouldn’t think the inflammation would be necessary for the putative health benefits.
I wonder if the psych stress from the hunger along with disrupted sleep, etc could be responsible for the inflammation.
My understanding is that initially with the fast you end up knocking down your WBC’s and then a few days into it, there ends up being a surge. I haven’t looked into it, in detail. The problem was, we were doing the full labs for inside tracker and we completely wasted our money — think we came off 10 years older than our ages - so repeated the labs a week later and both of ours were back happy again.
I guess there aren’t any miracles here but I am motivated to do both the FMD (I’m doing it now) and lowering my protein. On the protein side I’m going to drop to an average of 100g/d using a 150/50g cycle around my resistance training. I’ll be watching my strength and I’ll get another Dexa in a few months to evaluate muscle mass. I’ll also see if I’ve made a dent in the visceral fat I want to lose. Maybe I’ll get to 12-14% body fat overall as a side benefit. I think I’ll naturally eat less calories if I cut back on the high protein. No more protein shakes for me. Only whole food.
I’d really like to keep it simple and ask a question that hasn’t already been answered in the company’s web site and instructions.
What does he think of the idea of using a GLP drug during a Prolon fast to reduce hunger while maintaining all the benefits of the FMD? As a physician, does he have any patients who have done this successfully?
I get that. I’ll share that I’ve been in a lot of contact with them over the years. I’m also in their Facebook group (that is a not a great use of time because most people there are mainly using it as a diet). They will simply say, we have not conducted the studies using a glp drug and don’t know if prolon will still be effective.
I do hope this guy will share more knowledge about prescriptions.