WiseAthletes podcast: Fasting Mimicking Diet for Muscle & Longevity

I came to that conclusion as well, leucine abounds in kefir and yogurt, probably far healthier than processed whey protein

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I’m not sure I understand the GLP question. Is it to reduce hunger (which I don’t feel BTW) but the downside is higher insulin (and possible low blood sugar), and does it matter?

I suppose I could ask about the glucose spikes. Dr Antoun implied that he didn’t think glucose spikes were a problem in general during the talk.

I am clear about issues with supplements and meds in general. Blood sugar regulators (metformin, berberine, SLGT2 inhibitors), hunger regulators (GLP-1), apoB reduction (statin, Bempedoic acid, niacin), mTOR inhibitors (rapa). He has to say “take your meds” or “talk with your doctor” but maybe he’ll offer some thoughts on what in particular to be careful about. I’m sure many people here are not rule followers so a little bit of highlighting danger would be good.

I’ll ask about exercise restrictions (hunger mgmt, mTOR activation)

What else?

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Here are the questions I sent in…stay tuned.

Any issues with a DIY low carb version of FMD (same calories by day but lower carb)?

Wouldn’t those soups be super high-glycemic given the ingredients? (One listener said her CGM showed big spikes)

Are the glucose spikes a feature or a flaw?

How about Prolon with a GLP drug to take away the hunger aspect during the fast. This would make the fast SO much easier, but would the increased insulin output caused by the GLP drug interfere with the putative benefits of the FMD?

Any supplements or medicines that might interfere with the results…should talk to doctor about?

All organs and tissue shrink while doing FMD in the words of Valter Longo. Why not muscle too?

Common issues people would have encounter when trying to replicate using home cooked meals?

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Since you mentioned leucine, I gotta ask. Would HMB help with muscle loss even if not combined with protein?

Well, I couldn’t stand not working out so I lifted just now. I felt pretty good but not strong. Now I’ll see how much I’ll pay for that in the last day.

But I won’t lose muscle!

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Are you on day 4 now? How has it been for you? You are used to fasting, so maybe you are sailing through?

Day 1 is always super easy for me. Closer to my normal calorie intake.
Day 3 is hell on earth (no chocolate dessert, WTAF!)
Days 4 and 5 are fairly easy, but by day 5 I always proclaim, as god as my witness, I will never eat soup again!!! Sometimes I don’t even eat the soups on day 5 (not the case with gen 3 that I happen to like more)

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Day 1 was the hardest. Brain fog big time. But I haven’t even hungry ever. And I think the food is delicious. I truely love it. Day 4, today, I forgot to eat my crackers with my lunch soup so I got to eat them for dinner. I love those kale crackers. But the Fast Bar is the most amazing thing.

I think the best part of the FMD is the structure. You either comply or you don’t. I feel freed from my eating to get my protein. I’m so pleased that I did this. I now remember how much I like the feeling of an empty stomach.

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I got sick of gen 1 and 2 soups, but that is because I’ve done this a dozen times :slight_smile:

And I agree, aside from the soups that I am sick of, I LOVE the food too… I’d buy those olives, crackers and chocolate bars. The fast bar is also great!!! YES

Warning, the bars you can buy to extend the fast taste NOTHING like the bars in the kit… they are putrid :slight_smile: I had so many boxes that came free with the kits… I could not give those things away!

My first round I almost fainted on day 3… (I’m not a fainter!)… and on day 5 I had the sense of euphoria they talk about. I had an awful headache the entire time (caffeine withdrawal)

I’ve never had any of those things happen on subsequent rounds. I did start having a shot of espresso each morning on the future rounds because they said I could. Based on what I see in that facebook group, coaches often just say what people want to hear, so I hope being allowed one cup of coffee is true (if you can find that out, that would be great!). For me, seeing some of their marketing has taken away from their reputation of being about rigorous science (too weight loss orientated and just caving to what people want to hear). It made me feel better about them after listening to your podcast!!!

And yes, I love not thinking about food… it’s just there and I can go about my day vs all the planning and cleaning

Also … being reminded I don’t need the amount of protein that everyone I respect says I need has been wonderful! When I heard valter longo say this 5 years ago, I lowered my intake… but since then I jacked it up out of fear. Christopher Gardner is the only other person who says this! This was an especially wonderful podcast for me!

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I’m happy you liked it. Keeping muscle isn’t about protein intake, it’s about using those muscles. Tell the body in the only language it knows that it needs muscle. If you can’t put on muscle then you might need more protein (or just more calories). The amount of protein I need is what I have to find out.

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Conceptually, HMB would tend to negate the beneficial effects of the FMD. For example, the 2019 review of Kackza et al. below linked reads:

The ergogenic effects of HMB supplementation are related to the enhancement of sarcolemma integrity, inhibition of protein degradation (ubiquitin pathway), decreased cell apoptosis, increased protein synthesis (mTOR pathway), stimulation of the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (GH/IGF-1) axis and enhancement of muscle stem cells proliferation and differentiation.

The FMD, always in concept and according to Valter Longo, should be a time for autophagy, mTor inhibition and apoptosis and even muscle cells may benefit from these mechanisms occasionally. This is the opposite of what Leucine and apparently its metabolite HMB are doing. Even though the process is selective, that is acting preferentially upon muscles (but what about the liver and other organs and the heart muscles for example?).

I think it’s a great question for Dr. Antuon if priority of muscle mass preservation during an FMD should govern upon the above considerations.

After all, I always gained back the lost weight after refeeding correctly and exercising. Except last time, when I did my FMD within an already estabilished catabolic trend (due to other reasons like irregular sleep, low carb regime, stressful situations).

If the body weight and muscle mass are below ideal, then probably the FMD is not the best intervention in this context and HMB could be used to avoid a chronic state of myopenia.

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Thank you for your thorough answer.

Years ago I did a deep dive on HMB, wondering if it activated mTOR in tissues other than muscle. At the time I found a published study that said yes it indeed activates mTOR in other tissues/organs in animal subjects, so I avoid it during fasting/FMD. I wish I had the reference but this was literally 10+ years ago that I did that search, and even with the help of AI I can’t find anything now.:roll_eyes:

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So, this a bit off topic but still about HMB. One of my furbabies has hemangiosarc (and possibly pheochromocytoma), and he’s experiencing moderate to severe loss of muscle mass in his hind legs. He’s on rapamycin, metformin, and tons of other supplements, and his quality of life is good considering his condition. I can’t find vet oncologist who can answer this question so I’m hoping one of you guys can. If this is not appropriate for this thread, I apologize in advance, but here it is: do you guys think it would be beneficial to the cachexia to stop the rapamycin temporarily, add HMB short term, and then go back to the rapamycin? If so, how long? What gave me this idea is the treatment that my uncle is taking for Parkinson’s. He’s not on rapamycin, but the doc puts him on 3 months of a product called mTOR (actual name of the pills - I’m not referring to the pathway here) every few months, and it tends to help his mobility. I guess my main question is: does mTOR activation affects hemangionsarc and pheochromocytoma? And if so, would it be beneficial enough to give this to him short term, considering the possible worsening of the cancer. Would Ivermectin and Fenbendazole or Mebendazole help while he takes HMB? I cannot find any docs here in Las Vegas who recommend any of this stuff. In Brazil the vets are doing mistletoe injections for cancer with good results, and here the docs I have spoken to are not even familiar with it. And just for the record, I’m not trying to cure him, I’m trying to give him quality of life and if at all possible avoid internal hemorrhaging, common in visceral (spleen in his case) hemangiosarcoma. I guess hemangiosarc is pretty close to human angiosarcoma, so if anyone here has any tips or a personal experience that they can share, I would greatly appreciate the support. When you decline chemo and surgery, the “gold” standard treatment for hemangiosarc in dogs, which has terrible survival rates and quality of life, you are pretty much on your own.

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I’d get a consult with Kevin Toman, DVM. He prescribes rapamycin for dogs (not that you need it from him, but at least he’s well-versed in the veterinary research) and blends both pharmaceutical vet medicine with naturopathic treatments. He’s in California, but you can pay a consult fee (125 I believe and fill out detailed form with your dog’s history, also send vet records to him) and he’ll give detailed response on treatment recommendations without seeing you in person. He also has access to like-minded specialists (including veterinary oncologists).

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I know Dr. K. and have purchased rapa from him. Thank you!

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Very interested to hear your results from FMD. Threading the needle as you say is a tough problem. I recently correlated 2 years of calorie and macro data to my lean mass (absolute and percentage) - no surprise that more calories and protein helped me gain muscle (carb or fat ratio did not matter). Lean mass was best when protein was high at 1g/lb of body weight but I know there are many arguments that this is not good for longevity. I tried ProLon about 5 years ago. Don’t remember my exact numbers but lost both lean mass and fat and did not look healthy. I do remember eating a big meal when I finished it. Huge mistake and it didn’t stay down long! LOL.

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This was after how many times of doing Prolonged? I ask because I can barely see any change in my body after one 5-day plan. Of course I have lost a little bit of belly area fat (and hopefully visceral fat), but I cannot see any muscle loss. My abdomen is smaller because my digestive tract is empty. My glycogen stores are empty, which I can feel just going up stairs. Both of these would qualify as lost lean mass on a Dexa but don’t really count as loss of muscle mass in my mind. I wonder if my lifting 2x and doing zero cardio during the 5-day program changed my body differently than standard.

I won’t have a full report until I get my next Dexa to tell me what really has changed. I think this has been a great experience and I need to leverage this new motivation to stay the course on my lower protein experiment. The key will be to continue working out hard and still being able to recover and adapt.

More soon

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That was my first and only time doing ProLon. I had been intermittent fasting previously and after. Took me months to gain back but I just wasn’t eating enough. Today, my focus is CrossFit and Zone 2 work for physical fitness and intermittent Rapa vs fasting to turn down MTor. The question on how much protein for longevity and lean mass is tough so looking forward to hearing more about your experiment.

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I finished the 5-Day FMD. Here is my summary of the experience;

  1. I loved the food
  2. I loved the structure of the process. It was easy to follow. And I was never tempted to cheat
  3. I was never hungry. I’m amazed.
  4. I lost 5 lbs, and a good bit of subcutaneous belly fat. And hopefully some visceral fat. I don’t think I lost muscle (but I did lift 2x to make sure). Some of the weight loss was poop and muscle glycogen (read: temporary).
  5. I did have brain fog on day 1 but never again, and no other problems.
  6. I gave blood on day 2 with no issues
  7. Promised benefits: autophagy (maybe), weight loss (yes), no muscle loss (I think so).
  8. Other benefits: Excellent sleep (low HR), and I broke my eating patterns/ habits. Now I can remake my diet. One change will be less protein. Another will be smaller meals.

I’ll do this again. I’m not sure how often. I’ll get a Dexa in a couple months to see how the low protein is working, and if I’ve lost my visceral fat.

I’ll report back with the Dexa report.

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Update: one more benefit that I have just noticed is an elimination of any post workout joint pain. At first I thought it was from lifting less weight / reps while I was doing the FMD. But the effect continued after the FMD ended. I did a normal (hard) lifting session, and the normal aches never arrived. I normally use my red /NIR lamp to erase the discomfort but now I don’t need it.

I find it very strange, as in whose body am I living in now? I suppose I knocked down some overactive immune function with the FMD. My hsCRP is always very low so I didn’t think I had much inflammation to lose but I did.

I will definitely do this again.

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