Sorry for the poor sound quality. This one was a technical issue hell.
But, now I finally have a mechanistic model of how my mouth tries to stay healthy and repair itself, and how I am interfering with that process to my own detriment. Thanks to Dr Ellie.
Key learnings for me:
the mouth will heal itself from the damage done by eating, drinking, and bacteria de-mineralizing the teeth, but we often interfere with this process
keep the mouth closed and empty almost all of the time (this fits with the nasal breathing advice Iāve gotten); stop eating / drinking all day long (only drink with meals, ideally)
help the mouth remineralize after eating by de-acidifying the mouth (foods, xylitol, mouth rinse)
the night time is the most important time to have a healthy mouth: prepare the mouth for sleep, and keep the mouth closed during sleep (avoid dryness)
avoid or be careful with acidic drinks (citrus, apple cider vinegar, carbonated drinks, coffee)
xylitol is a key tool for de-acidifying the mouth after meals, and reducing bad bacteria that cause tooth decay and gum disease: mints, gum, etc.
ā¦plus a ton more. This one is long as Dr Ellie is a storyteller, but I left it all in because it is all valuable for gaining a sense of how to take care of your mouth so your mouth can take care of you.
Based on the podcast shownotes, here are the assertions that Gemini 2.0 Pro Experimental considers misleading or incorrect:
Toothbrush Drying: While keeping a toothbrush clean is important, the claim that bacteria die when they dry is an oversimplification. Some bacteria can survive in a dormant state (spores) and reactivate when conditions are favorable. The 24-hour drying recommendation and needing two toothbrushes is excessive and not supported by mainstream dental recommendations. Good rinsing and allowing the brush to air dry is generally sufficient.
Glycerin in Toothpaste: The claim that glycerin āinterferes with the natural repairā of teeth is not supported by scientific evidence. Glycerin is a humectant (keeps the toothpaste moist) and is generally considered safe in toothpaste formulations. Thereās no credible research showing it blocks remineralization.
āSensitiveā Toothpastes: While stannous fluoride can block dentinal tubules (the tiny channels in dentin that lead to sensitivity), this is not a universally bad thing. Itās a legitimate mechanism of action for reducing sensitivity. The podcast presents it as a āquick fixā instead of a solution, but for many people, it is a valid solution for managing sensitivity. Other sensitive toothpastes use potassium nitrate, which works by desensitizing the nerve. Both are valid approaches.
Triclosan Concerns (Overblown): While the FDA banned triclosan from soaps due to concerns about hormonal disruption and bacterial resistance, its use in toothpaste is a different scenario. The amount of triclosan in toothpaste is very small, and the benefits (reducing gingivitis and plaque) have been demonstrated. The Colgate Total formulation (which used to contain triclosan) was extensively reviewed and deemed safe and effective by the FDA. The concern about chloroform formation from triclosan reacting with chlorine in tap water is highly unlikely to be significant in the context of toothbrushing. The concentrations are extremely low.
Flossing: The claim that flossing is unnecessary or dangerous is incorrect and goes against the overwhelming consensus of dental professionals. Flossing removes plaque and food debris from between teeth, where a toothbrush canāt reach. While itās true that cavities and gum disease are bacterial infections, removing the biofilm (plaque) is crucial for preventing these infections. The risk of bacteremia (bacteria entering the bloodstream) from flossing in a healthy mouth is minimal. In a mouth with severe gum disease, thereās a slightly higher risk, but the benefits of disrupting the biofilm generally outweigh this risk. The advice to avoid flossing is dangerous.
Water Flossing: Water flossers can be a helpful adjunct to traditional flossing, especially for people with braces, bridges, or implants. The claim that they ādamage fragile periodontal fibersā is not supported by evidence. They can be used incorrectly (too high pressure, wrong angle), but when used properly, they are generally safe and effective.
CloSYS: The claim that CloSYS creates oxygen that disrupts harmful bacteria is partially true. CloSYS contains stabilized chlorine dioxide, which can release chlorine dioxide gas, a strong oxidizing agent. It can kill bacteria. However, the claim that it does this āwith no harm to healthy mouth bacteriaā is an oversimplification. While it might be less harmful than some other antiseptics, itās unlikely to be completely selective.
Listerine and Nitric Oxide: The claim that Listerine doesnāt harm nitric oxide production is misleading. While some studies suggest that some antiseptic mouthwashes (particularly those with chlorhexidine) can reduce oral nitric oxide production, Listerine can have an effect, though it may be less pronounced than with chlorhexidine. Nitric oxide is important for various bodily functions, including blood pressure regulation. The podcastās dismissal of this concern is not entirely accurate.
āCrest Cavity Protection Regular Pasteā Specificity: The extreme specificity about this one formulation of Crest toothpaste, claiming itās uniquely effective, is suspicious and sounds like marketing. While the ingredients listed (sodium fluoride, silica, no glycerin) are common and acceptable in toothpaste, thereās no reason to believe this specific product is vastly superior to other fluoride toothpastes.
ACT Rinse and Mineralization: While a fluoride rinse will encourage remineralization, the wording that it will ānaturally whiten your smileā is an overstatement. Fluoride remineralization helps strengthen and potentially repair very early stages of decay, which might appear as white spots. It wonāt significantly whiten teeth that are already stained or discolored from other factors.
And what Gemini thinks is generally accurate (with caveats):
Salivaās Importance: The podcast is correct that saliva is crucial for oral health. It contains minerals (calcium and phosphate) that help remineralize teeth after acid exposure, and it has buffering capacity to neutralize acids. This is fundamental dental science.
Acidās Role in Decay: Acidic environments do demineralize teeth, making them vulnerable to cavities. This is a core concept in understanding tooth decay. Frequency and duration of acid exposure are key factors.
Mouth Breathing and Dry Mouth: Mouth breathing does lead to dry mouth (xerostomia), reducing salivaās protective effects. This increases the risk of cavities and gum disease.
Xylitolās Benefits: Xylitol is a well-researched sugar substitute that doesnāt contribute to tooth decay. It can stimulate saliva flow and, importantly, Streptococcus mutans (the main cavity-causing bacteria) canāt metabolize it. This reduces the bacteriaās ability to produce acid.
Topical Fluoride: Topical fluoride (in toothpaste, rinses, and professional treatments) is widely accepted and proven to strengthen enamel and make it more resistant to acid attacks. It helps incorporate fluoride ions into the tooth structure, forming fluorapatite, which is more resistant to demineralization than hydroxyapatite (the natural mineral in teeth).
Brushing Technique: Proper brushing technique is more important than the specific type of brush (manual vs. electric), as long as the brush is in good condition and reaches all tooth surfaces. The emphasis on gum massage is also reasonable, as it can improve circulation.
Avoiding Abrasives: Harsh abrasives can damage enamel over time, especially with aggressive brushing.
Iāve been following a Dr Ellie ālightā protocol for many years after first seeing an article about her in our local newspaper (when it really was printed on paper!). I gave up on the expensive Closys, and only occasionally use the fluoride rinse, but I do use xylitol mints several times a day. I also brush when I get up and after dinner, not more frequently.
My gums never bleed, and stopped receding.
Yes I also floss - I mean you can see the food in between the teeth!
A caution with xylitol is that some of us simply canāt stomach it. It gives me terrible digestive problems. So I chew up the mints and swish and spit it out, like mouthwash.
āEmerging research highlights the critical yet often-overlooked link between oral and cardiovascular health. A Japanese case-control study found that Streptococcus anginosus was significantly more abundant in the saliva and gut of stroke patients. S. anginosus was linked to a 20% higher risk of stroke. A 25-year observational analysis of 6,000 US adults linked flossing to significantly lower risks of ischemic and cardioembolic stroke, as well as atrial fibrillation, independent of brushing and dental visits. Though preliminary, these studies reinforce the importance of oral hygiene in supporting cardiovascular health.ā
Just here to report I ordered the funny little toothbrush she recommends.
After my first use, I said WHOA, that felt aggressive and my mouth was slightly tender. I thought, huh, well maybe Iāll use this once per week.
Fast forward, I have used it for several days in a row and I love it! The tenderness only happened once. Had an expert not recommended it, I would have assumed this was ādangerousā to use on gums because dentists always say to use a soft toothbrush. To try to describe it, Iād say the bristles move as if they are kinda soft, but the bristles are rougher
Iāve used a sonicare for decades and always worried it might be too hard on my gums and contribute to recession, but based on this, I guess it doesnāt? Iād at times use my Nimbus ultra silky soft brush to brush my gums because it felt great and safe.
I have experimented a couple of times with flossing after I brush instead of prior just to see if it really does do all the flossing you need, and it seems to. But alas, I donāt trust it and will continue to floss.
Joseph had a link to her website up somewhere, but I donāt see it now?
If you listened to the podcast, youāll hear a lot of her good advice for your whole routine. I have no idea what specially helps receding gums, but I imagine itās just having a healthy mouth in general?
I bought the toothbrush
And the clyosis
Youāll see the exact products she recommends here:
I canāt deal with traditional minty flavors because Iām too used to the hippy dippy toothpastes Iāve been using for over 30 years, so I didnāt consider the other products. If you are open to them and not anti-fluoride, Iād consider buying all of it. If you do, buy the exact versions she mentions (also shown on her website)
If you havenāt listened yet, I think it will be worth your time. Sheās a joy to listen to.
I highly recommend binging on her YT content instead of getting second hand info. Get it from the horseās mouth. I did not have receding gums and had decent oral health but not great ā meaning, I did have some plaque that I would notice building up every week or so even after removing it with an ultrasonic cleaner. I used to think that was food gunk where the bacteria could and did grow. Turns out itās ALL bacterial biofilm, itās not food gunk at all, and from just one week of following her protocol itās completely gone. GONE! Nothing left, nada, zilch. Thereās nothing at the margin between teeth and gums now. And my teeth feel like glass when I run my tongue over them, zero gross feeling in the morning. Iām shocked, didnāt know that this is what a plaque free mouth is supposed to feel like and Iām furiously trying to get my kids on the protocol. Itās NOT just about certain products, but also how you eat and drink and when. Iāve been 100% faithful and been repaid for it much faster than she claimed ā she said 12 weeks to 6 months but in a just a week I feel like I got a new mouth. Maybe thatās because my plaque wasnāt so bad to begin with but itās still night and day. That expensive ass boka toothpaste wasnāt giving me anything for results but it sure did get the kids addicted to the taste so now it will be painful to wean them off it. To be honest I didnāt think the episode with Joseph got into much useful prescriptive stuff. It should be viewed as a launchpad unto her YT content. Iām a full blown believer now because the proof is in the pudding in my mouth! Oh and I donāt floss either, never did (unless thereās a piece of food stuck between teeth that I need to take out). I think itās probably why my gums werenāt in bad shape to begin with.
Iāve been following Dr Ellieās protocol since the episode, including performing the routine 2x per day.
My NO test strips are better than ever just with eating celery (no supplements). The listerine she recommends definitely does not kill the oral bacteria that converts nitrates to nitrite (which eventually gets made into NO). This was my biggest worry.
I only floss 1x/week now.
I do not brush or scrape my tongue anymore.
My breath is better than itās ever been, and no āmorning breathā.
My oral health is excellent.
Iām shocked it works so well. I am sad for my kids that I didnāt do it sooner. My two oldest are really struggling with the notion of mouth rest ā they have sipping and snacking habits they need to drop like a rock. And itās hard for me to enforce mouth rest while theyāre at school. So I will make them watch the videos and they hopefully catch the drift.
Ok, this update from you @Joseph_Lavelle and your crazy week one report @medaura is getting me intrigued.
I loved her from the podcast, but Iām not sure I can pull the trigger on crest/listerine/act. Iām getting close! I wish I knew what it was about these particular products in order to try to replicate it with things I might not loathe as much.
Joe, can you remind me how we are supposed to use celery? If I recall, perhaps that was an alternative to xylitol? I have been using cinnamon xylitol mints since and do quite enjoy them!
I did watch a couple videos this morning and now I see I have no idea how to brush my teeth!!! I didnāt catch that she shared this in the Wise Athletes podcast (or Iāve just forgotten), but we are supposed to brush our gumsā¦ and not at the tooth line as we were taught. Full on gums! She says that is more important than brushing our teeth!
Also I didnāt know we can grow gums back after some recession !
Itās interesting she said Invisalign, among other causes, are what can cause recession. And my PT (Joe, yeah, the voodoo witch doctor) has worked on my bite in the past and he just told me how people are fitted for braces and Invisalign is dumb because then we are setting up our bites from a reclining position and that is not how our teeth sit when we are uprightā¦ EUREKA, itās all now coming together.
@Beth Makes sense re: bite and thereās even much much more to it than I fully understand at the time. Itās my next rabbit hole.
Donāt forget her other product, Closys, before brushing the gums and teeth. And yes massaging / brushing the gums is gangsta! I have no recession but did have a pretty horrid ulceration on my gums from wearing an experimental mouth guard having to do with aforesaid rabbit hole re: occlusion. My gums were so so sore after I brushed them but the whole protocol sped up my ulcer healing which had stalled.
Iād recommend asking ChatGPT for dupes of her recommended products from HER perspective ā meaning, taking into account her stated mechanistic reasons for settling on the ones she did, because she gave many reasons. But once you feel for yourself what a completely plaque free mouth feels like, I think youāll put up with whatever ickiness from the products. I hate hate hate the taste and smell and sensation of Listerine but canāt argue with results.
Today I havenāt brushed my teeth in the AM. Itās gross and I NEVER skip but am trying to experiment to see how long this totally clean, newly brushed sensation can last. (That and Iām changing my habits to brush AFTER breakfast, as she recommends, not first thing in the AM, but after getting back from breakfast now the cleaning lady is doing the bathroom and I canāt get 5 minutes to myself for the routine.) But before this protocol I could not stand to live without brushing my teeth as soon as I got up because my mouth would feel nasty. Now it feels as if I have just brushed any minute of the day. I keep popping those Zellies every now and then whenever I put anything to eat or drink in my mouth.
One of my daughters who had a bunch of cavities and fillings is also starting the protocol and she said her mouth was starting to feel much cleaner and smoother inside. So itās not just me.
Also if you try to do this please please pay close attention to the details. Itās not just the brands but the specific formulations. She gives her reasons for why one will work and the others wonāt but the reasons are scattered among a shitload of videos so unless you binge very thoroughly and can give ChatGPT her mechanistic reasons, or maybe create a spreadsheet of her videos and put an AI agent up to the task of watching them all and transcribing them to pull her mechanistic reasons behind endorsing each product and what to steer clear of, it would be best to buy exactly the ones she mentions or if youāre in doubt, buy her kit. There are a ton of similar looking and sounding formulations of Closys and Listerine. My advice would be to get the stuff, see if it works for you, and if it does, work hard on finding the dupes you need. The tedious search is more motivating if you know it works, and you would get a baseline feeling in your mouth to compare the dupes regimen against, and know if it feels off or not as good.
Brilliant idea to ask Chatgbt! And ha, Iāve met me, there is no way Iām spreadsheeting information from her videos (Iām WAY too ADD for that!).
Oh, yes, I have closys already and had forgotten to use it until todayā¦ and yes, today I followed her advice and brushed after my coffee (but waited a bit because Iāve heard not to brush right after acids while your teeth are vulnerableā¦ but as I say this, perhaps closys counteracts this).
FWIW, I brush when I wake up, but I never feel I need to. My mouth almost always feels clean. Maybe I have a good ph or whatever naturally? I have heard vegans have better mouths, but I have never looked it up and just assumed it was propaganda.
Maybe I just try it, and if I puke from listerine, which could actually happen, I just pass it off to the husband (I have been using alternative toothpastes for over 30 yearsā¦ once you are not used to the chemically taste, itās hard to go backā¦. Boka lemon lavender, how do I love thee, let me count the ways)
Dr Ellie says to eat celery after a meal to act as a brushing alternative (if you cannot brush). This is similar to her approach to using xylitol gum
I eat 3 stalks after breakfast and 3 after dinner to maintain my NO load 24x7. Non organic (itās the fertilizer). My test strips in AM are very good.
Another thing I picked up from Dr Ellie: Keep mouth closed as much as possible during night and day. Keep the mouth wet with saliva. Avoid sipping fluids all day. Donāt be a āmouth breatherā. Sleep with mouth closed (I was already doing this). Also exercise with a closed mouth as much as possible (nasal breathe) for lots of reasons including avoiding a dry mouth.
Boka lemon lavender tasted amazing! Itās the one I would get but my kids prefer the Mint ELA. Alas, Iāve had to use the comparatively nasty tasting Crest and have to cancel the Boka subscription now.
She says when enamel is strong you canāt brush it away so no need to wait half hour. BUT yes start with the Closys to neutralize the acids first. But my takeaway was that you donāt need to brush more than twice a day, and by brush she means do the whole protocol. After meals or drinks during the day just end with xylitol or other tooth protective food (like whole milk or cheese or an apple or other high fiber food). And mouth rest. Meaning no food, drink, or much air in the mouth for 1-2 hours at a time, after the last thing that went on it was a tooth protector (ok realistically xylitol). Thatās so the saliva has time to remineralize teeth and undo any damage from the last eating session without getting compromised.
@medaura Ha, my childless self gets to use lemon lavender!!!
Ok, lord help me, I just placed the order. I will commit to using her gross products at night and my joyful toothpaste with cloysis in the morningā¦ if I can get used to the ick, Iāll go all in
@Joseph_Lavelle NO is nitric oxide ā¦ but are you saying you are buying non organic celery? I think Iām confused but want to make sure Iām not missing anything.
