Nice find on the vitamin C issue @ng0rge. When I was taking berberine, it is likely that one or more supplements containing vitamin C were in the mix. Do you have a reference for this?
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I am curious what certain celebrities and the super-wealthy are taking.
Today, A picture was published about Robert Murdoch who is 93 and about to marry a 67-year-old women. He doesn’t look like he walks 10,000 steps daily or goes to the gym.
This is making me wonder if there are any “secret” drugs that they are taking.
There are others such as Joan Collins who is still in remarkable shape at 90 and claims she never had Botox, etc.
Another remarkable example to me is the difference in the apparent energy levels between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Biden has been a lifelong proponent of exercise. Yet Biden appears much more frail than Trump.
“Biden begins his mornings with a workout that often includes lifting weights, and he meets regularly in person with a trainer. During the 2020 campaign, he biked regularly on both a traditional bike and a Peloton”
Pictures of Trump on the golf course look like he is overweight and in need of a diet and more exercise.
Back in the 1950’s there were many celebrates rumored to be taking Gerovital H3 (not the current successor products) The Gabor sisters were thought to be taking it and they looked good well into old age. Zaza Gabor lived until 99 years old.
The secret ingredient of Gerovital H3 was procaine hydrochloride.
“Procaine is most often used as an anti-aging agent for conditions such as dementia, age-related decline in memory and thinking skills, quality of life, and many others, but there is no good scientific evidence to support these uses.”
“Some clinical trials in the mid-to-late 1970s suggested that Gerovital H3 acts as a weak, competitive, reversible MAO inhibitor, and so may have some antidepressant value, but otherwise has a negligible effect on disease”
“From the 1950s until her death in 1988, Aslan promoted Gerovital H3 with great success. In the 1960s and 1970s her Romanian clinic, the Parhon Institute, became a mecca for celebrities seeking treatment, and an upscale tourist attraction. The New York Times referred to Gerovital’s “jet-set aura”, noting that Aslan had been covered in “society columns where such public figures as Nikita S. Khrushchev, Konrad Adenauer, and Ibn Saud have been listed among the multitudes said to have taken the drug.” As late as 1988 an advertisement by the Romanian National Tourist Office lauded “the picturesque and exciting cities, scenic delights, famous resorts (including Gerovital H3 treatment centers), cultural and historic treasures that await the traveler to Romania.”[2]”
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It’s a quote from the nature.com link that I posted, I think down in the middle somewhere. And I would think beyond vitamin C, that it would apply to other strong antioxidants.
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Evidence on berberine supplementation is growing and largely positive. I added a link to a decent summary below (apologies if it is already on this site). It is not unreasonable to be cautious about taking berberine. To my knowledge there are no long term case controlled studies focused on the full range of its possible effects. By comparison, there are decades of such studies on metformin.
For the time being, I stopped taking berberine because there have been few (perhaps no) case controlled studies on its overall impact on the intestinal biome. A scientist I trust who specializes in this type of research believes that gut responses could be highly individual, perhaps favorable for some and unfavorable for others. These possibilities are not facts, merely factors related to conjectures that have not been ruled out to consider in building a personalized risk/benefit equation. Related, I believe we have more objective human data on berberine than we have on rapamycin.
I have wondered this myself @desertshores . Biden and Trump are two of many examples of the range of differences that emerge later in life. Whereas Trump seems grossly out of shape and gets breathless when walking any distance, he does not appear at all frail. Biden, on the other hand, appears frail. An indeterminate part of Biden’s stiff gait might owe to his arthritic back and knee condition. There are other age related differences as well.
So far as anyone knows, neither of these people take special anti-aging drugs. One of my former mentors, who became a billionaire in his 70’s, was taking HGH and a formula of supplements customized for him by a longevity lab he funded. I looked at his formulation and it was surprisingly sparse. Even the B-vitamins were tailored to only a few specific ones based on his biochemistry. Later they dropped HGH. They also encouraged him to practice a time-restricted diet.
He lived to be a fairly robust 93, which I thought was not bad considering he very nearly died from advanced prostate cancer in the early 1980’s and didn’t begin his “health” regimine for another decade. Given what I saw in this one instance, it seems reasonable to think there highly customized longevity labs are marketing to and providing private services to billionaires.
In spite of some evidence that we can rise above them, there is no ignoring genes, IMO. My personal example of that is distance running. I ran 10Ks and marathons for several decades as an adult. I was pretty serious. In preparing for one race I can recall, I followed Frank Shorter’s exact training regimine for a year because he was going to be in the race and I thought it would be interesting to see if I could even keep him in sight during the race. I was not able to keep him in sight.
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I see it now @ng0rge. Thank you. Even though the Nature article is experimentation and observation in test tubes, it identifies some interesting research topics that will likely follow from these obesrvations.
I just read through the article you posted. Some selected quotes:
“Not only does berberine appear to produce significantly better results than metformin in blood glucose regulation, it also supersedes the benefits of rosiglitazone by improving fasting blood glucose levels.Recent clinical reports state that, in addition to the beneficial effect on the lipid profile, berberine increases the level of testosterone in men, which may reduce the risk of developing cardiovascular diseases.The effect of berberine, as well as its activity in combination with nutraceuticals, is undoubtedly beneficial in patients with a disturbed lipid profile. Consequently, it is interesting from the point of view of preventing the occurrence of cardiovascular diseases, because hypercholesterolemia is considered one of the most important cardiovascular risk factors.This may prove that berberine acts in a similar manner to some anti-diabetic drugs, such as acarbose and metformin, by modifying the gut microbiota and, thereby, altering the composition of bile acid and increasing the ratio between primary and secondary bile acids, which evince proinflammatory and cytotoxic effects.”
If you have links to negative outcomes with berberine or cautions about taking it, please post them. My main question at the moment is - does dihydroberberine provide the same gut benefits as berberine?
Another good example of this issue is curcumin. It has low bioavailabiliy so there are many alternative forms that are much more bioavailable, But curcumin also has beneficial effects on the gut microbiome. It’s not clear whether the alternative forms have the same positive effects on the gut. I’m particularly interested in bioavailability and have used and looked into liposomal encapsulation which is said to bypass both breakdown in the digestive tract and the effects of CYP3a4 in the liver. There are newer processes using nanoparticles and hydrogels being tested. Here’s a link:
https://ascendiapharma.com/newsroom/2022/07/28/liposome-vs-lipid-nanoparticle
I think it is perfectly reasonable to be a berberine enthusiast @ng0rge. In fact, it was a much earlier textual synthesis convinced me to add it to my regimen 500 mg. bid. This paper is an armchair review of a large number of studies and metanalyses. I like these kinds of papers for their stimulus value but it is also reasonable to keep in mind that the literature is scattered with papers of this type on different topics that were moved to the sidelines by comprehensive case-controlled research. Research on berberine is definitely on the rise as you can see if you plot the publication dates in the references.
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Trump doesn’t appear frail only because he’s overweight. Any overweight person in older age looks “healthier” than any skinny person. However, the looks are deceiving. Its just an optical illusion. We know what being overweight does to the body.
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Trump is also on 40mg of rosuvastatin to prevent strokes and heart attacks.
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As a normal weight, reasonably fit person of the same general age as these two guys @LaraPo, I understand and agree with what you are saying. Trump also uses heavy spray-on tanning chemicals, makeup, and hair dye whereas Biden doesn’t appear to camouflage his looks. The fact that he doesn’t permits us to see the translucency of his skin as it grows increasingly thin due to age-related factors.
However, I would still say that Biden is more frail and unsure of his footing. I’m not talking about the occasional falls, which both have taken, but more of how he approaches and navigates obstacles on stage, etc.
Only some of this has to do with physiological age, where I would not think Trump to be younger. If I were underwriting life insurance policies, I would charge more for his. I don’t suppose any of this matters because neither of these two people appear to avail themselves of advanced longevity medicines.
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I see what you are saying. Both need rapamycin like yesterday! The only thing is that it’s logically incorrect to say that Biden is “more frail” (more than who?) because Trump is not frail at all. He’s overweight.
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I have three paid LLM accounts and put the metformin/berberine question to all of them. While formatted differently, the answers were almost identical and varied only slightly in detail. I think present a good general read on the literature. I did not drill down further which is something I would ordinarily do at this point. I may follow up on that tomorrow using the same context window.
The following is Claude 3.0’s answer:
QUESTION
Multiple studies have identified that metformin and berberine have positive effects related to metabolic syndrome, cancer, obesity, type 2 diabetes, ischemic heart disease, stroke, myocardial infarction, and atherosclerosis. Considering each benefit separately, assess the quality and amount of research supporting metformin and berberine and compare the two, identifying, if possible, the drug for which the evidence is greater.
RESPONSE
Metformin and berberine are both compounds that have been studied for their potential therapeutic effects in various metabolic and cardiovascular diseases. Here’s an assessment of the quality and amount of research supporting each compound for the mentioned conditions, along with a comparison between the two:
Metabolic syndrome:
Metformin: Numerous clinical trials and meta-analyses have demonstrated the efficacy of metformin in improving various components of metabolic syndrome, such as reducing insulin resistance, lowering blood glucose levels, and improving lipid profiles. The evidence supporting metformin’s use in metabolic syndrome is robust and well-established.
Berberine: Several studies, mostly conducted in vitro and in animal models, have suggested that berberine may have beneficial effects in metabolic syndrome by improving insulin sensitivity, lipid metabolism, and inflammation. However, the clinical evidence from human studies is relatively limited compared to metformin.
Cancer:
Metformin: There is a growing body of epidemiological and preclinical evidence suggesting that metformin may have anticancer properties and potentially reduce the risk of certain types of cancer, particularly in diabetic patients. However, large-scale clinical trials are still needed to confirm these findings.
Berberine: Some in vitro and animal studies have indicated that berberine may possess anticancer activities, such as inducing apoptosis in cancer cells and inhibiting tumor growth. However, the clinical evidence in humans is limited, and more research is required to establish its potential as an anticancer agent.
Obesity:
Metformin: Metformin has been shown to have modest weight-reducing effects in obese individuals, particularly those with type 2 diabetes or metabolic syndrome. Several clinical trials and meta-analyses have supported its use as an adjunct therapy for weight management.
Berberine: Several studies have reported that berberine may aid in weight loss and improve metabolic parameters in obese individuals. However, the quality and quantity of evidence are somewhat limited compared to metformin.
Type 2 diabetes:
Metformin: Metformin is a first-line medication for the treatment of type 2 diabetes mellitus. Its efficacy in improving glycemic control and reducing the risk of diabetes-related complications is well-established through numerous high-quality clinical trials and meta-analyses.
Berberine: While some studies have suggested that berberine may have beneficial effects on glycemic control and insulin sensitivity in individuals with type 2 diabetes, the evidence is less robust and comprehensive compared to metformin.
Ischemic heart disease, stroke, myocardial infarction, and atherosclerosis:
Metformin: Several observational studies and meta-analyses have indicated that metformin may have cardioprotective effects and reduce the risk of cardiovascular events, such as myocardial infarction and stroke, in individuals with type 2 diabetes. However, the evidence is not as strong as for its glucose-lowering effects.
Berberine: Limited clinical studies have suggested that berberine may have potential benefits in improving cardiovascular risk factors, such as lipid profiles and endothelial function. However, large-scale clinical trials are lacking, and the evidence for its effects on cardiovascular outcomes is limited.
Summary
In summary, while both metformin and berberine have shown promising effects in various metabolic and cardiovascular conditions, the quality and amount of research supporting metformin is generally more robust and well-established, particularly for the treatment of type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Metformin has a stronger evidence base from numerous high-quality clinical trials and meta-analyses, while the evidence for berberine is mostly derived from preclinical and small-scale clinical studies. However, berberine may have potential as a complementary or alternative therapy, and further research is warranted to fully understand its therapeutic potential.
Only some of this has to do with physiological age, where I would not think Trump to be younger. If I were underwriting life insurance policies, I would charge more for his.
Politics aside, I wonder what the actuaries would have to say about this. My guess would be Biden, who pretty clearly appears to have some type of dementia.
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@jnorm Did you see the hour long unscripted interview with Biden this past weekend? I have seen first hand some ersatz news outlets cherry pick their video vignettes to align with their political ideologies.
I have no interest in either the left or the right but to this point, I used to assess IQ for extra money in graduate school and my step-son is a university-based neuropsychologist who specializes in assessing mental competence. After a few hundred assessment, you get a pretty good feel for the subject. Biden has a lifelong speech impediment which he mostly conquered in his adult years but is now growing worse with age, as is often the case. I recall hearing his impediment as far back as the Robert Bork hearings. It tends to get worse when he gets excited. Additionally, he suffers from an almost universal problem in old age that does not correlate with IQ. It sometimes takes we older folks a few seconds to retrieve a memory. This delayed retrieval problem (which typically begins in the 30’s or 40’s but is generally not noticeable until much later in life) is the opposite of what you see in AD, where the disease first affects storage. Delayed retrieval issues can also differ according to data type. Proper and common nouns, for example, are stored differently in a different area of the brain than other forms of information. It is easy to confuse these manifestations with dementia.
AD patients generally recall pre-onset memories well in the early stages and sometimes well into the late stages but cannot form new memories. I won’t assess Trump’s mental status lest this get political which is a waste of time in this forum, IMO.
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That is the KEY question.
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I haven’t. I’ll work on it and post next week.
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Looking at the studies reported on this forum there is a selection bias that IMO wrongly indicated a merit of metformin for other than diabetes. Clearly the LLMs have not picked this up. That in itself is an interesting point about how LLMs work.
In essence LLMs can only do effective searching amongst the written knowledge base and will be biased towards the conventional wisdom.
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Where do you get this nonsense from?
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