Sleep supplements: what is most effective, least habit forming, and safest?

#410

I’ve been trying some new things lately and had success last night that I hope to replicate!

I took:

  • 2 capsules of silexan, a standardized lavender essential oil preparation.
  • 1 capsule of magnolia bark. Not extract, just the herb powder.
  • 1 750mg capsule of agmatine sulfate.
  • 1mg guanfacine.
  • 1 capsule of magnesium glycinate.

I didn’t take:

  • Melatonin

Silexan
I’ve been taking 1x capsule of silexan nightly for 1-2 weeks and wasn’t noticing much from it. Out of frustration from poor recent sleep I decided to take 2x last night.

Some ok data on sleep. Also seems fairly innocuous. I found it on special and decided to put it in my arsenal of sleep tools to trial.

Magnolia Bark
That frustration also led me to try magnolia bark. Magnolia bark contains honokiol which is an interesting phytochemical which among other things acts on alpha GABA receptors, supposedly without the negative effects of benzodiazepines.

Agmatine Sulfate
I don’t attribute much of the sleep benefit to agamtine sulfate, which I’m taking to test out a claim of it helping improve dopamine receptor sensitivity and for general mood boost. This may or may not be working for these purposes, it’s hard to say.

Guanfacine
I have been taking gaunfacine for 15-20 days at this point. The first few nights it really helped with sleep but then it started making no difference. I don’t really put much weight on this for last nights effects.

I’m trialling this dose of guanfacine for 1-2 months and I’ll likely increase the dose by 1mg and see if I get more benefits for ADHD and sleep from this. Up to a maximum of 4mg. It seems somewhat beneficial for ADHD but sleep effects vary too much to rely on IMO.

Magnesium Glycinate
Magnesium glycinate I take most nights. As long as I don’t take too much I don’t notice any negative effects, but also no real positive effects.

Didn’t take Melatonin
Didn’t take melatonin. Melatonin seems to help when I haven’t taken it in a long time, but eventually seems to cause me to not fall asleep and wake up too early.

As with everything I’ve tried for sleep, I don’t expect this stack to work tonight lol. But I’ve read some pretty positive stuff about magnolia bark and its constituent honokiol before. Read a bit more here if you want: Honokiol - Wikipedia

I plan on going deeper on it and making a detailed post some time.

I got it from iHerb.

This is the magnolia bark capsule product I have: https://au.iherb.com/pr/swanson-vitamins-full-spectrum-magnolia-bark-400-mg-**60-capsules/117681

This is one I am interested in trying as it is extract which contains a standardized amount of honokiol: https://au.iherb.com/pr/swanson-vitamins-magnolia-extract-200-mg-30-vegan-caps/117963

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#411

This worked again last night.

I think it is mostly the magnolia bark.

I’m looking into its major phytochemicals honokiol and magnolol as they might be the specific things causing this beneficial effect.

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#412

I have a routine that involves large amounts of melatonin. I want to take the large amounts of melatonin for reasons other than sleep. Hence I don’t want to change this aspect of my stack. However, it would be interesting to see what could be done to have more continuous sleep. I almost expect to be awake for an ultradian cycle at night time (normally in the early morning) and I plan for this by allowing enough time in bed to get at least 6 hours continuous sleep. I do read my phone during the first hour of the woken cycle at times, but I normally now get at least 6, sometimes 7 and even at time 8 hours sleep time. As I can function OK on 5 and well on 6 I am not in a rush to do anything about this.

#413

Hi @John_Hemming! I’ve been having Claude Fable go through my protocol and he keeps whining about me taking so much melatonin. I’ve been take 30mg per day. I don’t need it for sleep and only taking it for the other benefits.

Would you mind sharing a couple of your favorite papers/resources of why you believe larger doses are beneficial, so I can share them with ‘him’. I’m trying to convince him :).

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#414

Sleep onset was fast last night but I woke up an 1-2 hours earlier than I’d like.

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#415

Perhaps start with these which we’ve covered in the past:

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#416

I am away at a conference at the moment. The reason i take a lot is to prevent mtDNA damage. I would need to spend quite a bit of time to put this together which I dont have at the moment.

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#417

Hi @Beth

Do you take it (30 mg) as one serving at night?
Have you noticed any noticeable effects from taking 30 mg melatonin?

#418

Hi @Curious!

Yes, I take 3 pills that provide a total of 30mg of melatonin and 3000g of glycine (glycine as part of my glyNAC)

Some of the melatonin is immediate release, and some of it is extended release.

In the past, I have also taken 100mg immediate release from Pure Bulk (one pill and no fillers). Even at that high dose, I’ve never noticed anything other than I sleep well.

I did take 1g once and felt odd enough that I was a little nervous.

I’ve been a little less peppy lately, so I did just take 5 days off to make sure it really wasn’t the melatonin (Claude’s idea)… once again, Claude was wrong, I feel the same and my sleep is the same. I’ll be starting back up.

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#419

Had issue getting to sleep last night. Magnolia bark itself at a single 400mg capsule does not seem to be the heavy hitter I thought it was going to be, you still need to watch caffeine consumption and avoid heavy late night stimulation from light, activities and so on.

I’m going to trial a DORA some time soon I think. But I’m also interested to try higher dose magnolia bark, and also trial honokiol and magnolol, which are constituents isolated from magnolia bark.

#420

Caffeine blocks the adenosine receptor. I would not take something to overwhelm that effect.

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#421

I have tried many herbal supplements, valerian root, chamomile, lavender, ashwagandha, and passionflower, over the years, and found none of them very effective.

I am sleeping quite well with a minimal sleep stack. A few days ago, I watched a Dave Asprey video on YouTube. I have been following Dave Asprey since he achieved some minor media fame for his “Bulletproof Coffee.” He is not a scientist by any means. But I like to follow him because he is always trying something new on himself. He was sharing his experience with apigenin. He claims it improves deep sleep by 1700%. Which, of course, is just a clickbait phrase for his video.

After watching the video, I did leave a negative comment: "Current scientific literature does not support the claim that apigenin significantly increases deep (slow-wave) sleep, nor is there clinical evidence demonstrating a 1700% increase in any specific sleep phase.

But then I said, “What the hell, I have a bottle of apigenin sitting unused on my shelf; I’ll give it a try.”

Since apigenin is relatively poorly absorbed, I take it with BioPerine. I started with 50 mg of apigenin and did notice a little subjective improvement in my sleep. The next night, I tried 100 mg, and it had a strong effect. My sleep-tracking watch shows an improved pattern of deep sleep, and I wake up feeling like I got a good night’s sleep.

100 mg of apigenin has such a good effect; I don’t think I could get a better effect with a higher dose. Dave Asprey uses 400 mg.

For those who are having trouble with sustained sleep, this is a relatively inexpensive and harmless supplement to try. I was quite skeptical, but it works for me.

Asprey video

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#422

I’ve tried it before, but I’ve been thinking of giving it another go.

I slept quite well last night however.

#423

Everything that touches the GABA pathway is going to improve your sleep: benzo, apigenin, melissa, L theanine, Valerian, etccc. The question is from what angle is doing it and if it creates resistance. Out of all of the ones I tried, Melissa is my favorite because it last the longest and it’s very mild. Exactly what I am looking for because I tend to wake up at the 6-7 hour mark.

#424

Can you recommend any specific products? What do you use? Have you found something that combines apigenin with piperine and do you take them separately?

I’d like to give apigenin another try for sleep, this time with piperine. However, I haven’t been able to find BioPerine on its own or combined with apigenin from a brand that I trust. Would appreciate any product recommendations.

#425

I use Double Wood apigenin and Source Naturals BioPerine, 10 mg.

I had tried apigenin before, but not for sleep, and I was not taking it at bedtime.
I think that the higher doses and taking it at bedtime make a big difference. David Asprey claims he takes 400 mg. I noticed little effect with 50 mg, but 100 mg works well for me.

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#426

I don’t find lemon balm to be that effective. What dose are you taking for it?

#427

First of all, without supplements I have a decent sleep so I am just perfecting it. I can notice the effects with just a simple Melissa tea (i let it steep for an hour or so). Right now I am experimenting with the lemon balm capsules with similar effects (7% concentrated, rosmarinic acid 35mg).

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#428

I can comment on DORA and MagBark, N=1:

MagBark: at 200mg caused me a rash, which went away when I stopped. I’m staying clear of it for a while.

DORA (Dual orexin receptor antagonists) is a newer class of insomnia meds that work by blocking signals in the brain that stimulate wakefulness. I used Belsomra/suvorexant.

Damned sweet. One of the cleanest sleep aids I’ve ever used. And no sedation effects by morning, which with my clearance pathways makes it a rare treasure.

However:

  1. Can cause next day mood-drop, esp if your genetics runs a tight ship on dopamine, as mine does. For me, 10mg was enough to make me flat and irritable the next day, and frankly, I’d rather be tired. (Claude: “Blocking orexin doesn’t just reduce wakefulness drive, it reduces the motivational and affective tone those projections support. Flat and irritable is consistent with dampened orexin-mediated NE and dopamine tone.”) I’ll probably stay to the lowest effective 5mg, if I use it at all.

  2. Expensive, depending on your insurance. This is not a cheap ride. But if you’re willing to risk the flat/irritable, it can be an incredibly effective sleep aid for those for whom GABA-related interventions are useless.

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#429

Maulik sells lemborexant fairly reasonably priced. I’ve not purchased any yet.

Trialling microdose occasional progesterone (3-6mg every 2-5 days) and it seem to be wildly effective and improving sleep. As long as no sexual side effects occur this seems quite effective.

Still tempted to get some lemborexant just to have on hand.

Magnolia bark is also quite effective for something natural and doesn’t really cause any side effects except sometimes next day tiredness.

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