Question about fasting protocols

[desertshores]

No apologies needed, you just wandered into a cat fight among two cantankerous people, one old, one young.
In my opinion, genes are near the top of the list. My uncle died at 85, which is older than I am now. He lived on a ranch in the Teton Basin with his wife. He was a lifetime smoker and drinker. They spent a lot of time in the winter drinking and smoking. Their food source in the winter was mainly, venison and mutton. He was active until he died of a heart attack. My mother said to me “The fool just drank himself to death” Maybe his mostly carnivorous diet worked for him.

We are all in mostly uncharted territory here and are trying to develop maps to find our way. So, some arguments are sure to follow when deciding which trail to follow.

[DyingSucks]

If nothing else, the past couple years has shown us that a LOT of “experts”, aren’t, and a lot of “science”, isn’t. Further exacerbated by agendas and narratives to validate. Today we have Pfizer, The CDC, MSM and The White House telling us the “science” says to vaccinate infants from 6 months old. The science AND data directly contradict this (including their own trials!), but the “experts” tell us to trust them. Ahh, NO.

If you did a poll to find out who people view as the #1 expert on aging in America, no doubt, the winner would be David Sinclair. He’s “the man” at Harvard. He’s the genius behind the 2 most well known and promising anti-aging compounds: Resveratrol and NMN. He’s generously shared his knowledge on Joe Rogan, his book and (literally) countless interviews. He’s the go-to for all things aging.

For a few months there a while back, I listened to all his interviews and wanted to know what he was taking and doing. The “I wanna be a celebrity” vibe became off-putting, so I did a little research about his research and learned he’s a man who made his name and fortune via a compromised trial and whose greatest accomplishments have been extending his fame and fortune vs human lifespan. He has increased the public awareness of the anti-aging field- something deserving acknowledgement. I’m still cheering that something like a Rapamycin comes out of his research. So far though, imho, his greatest area of expertise is in self-promotion. “Expert”.

I watch Peter Attia - especially when he breaks down why a study was done well, or wasn’t. He did this recently with a negative study on statins. He’s smart and we definitely need people like him; but I’d never rely on him alone for the basis of a decision. The reality is, his business model revolves around content creation for revenue and marketing. He has to keep pumping out new and different content, and showing passion for the content- just like any other content creator, be they on Youtube, Insta or Onlyfans!

I feel that a forum like this, with highly motivated people from varied background, beats any “expert”. I’ve only been here a short time, but the amount of information is, well, daunting. What I really find useful is seeing a post offering a compelling case for X intervention, followed by a “you might want to look at its impact on Y”, or, “Make sure you check your Z levels”, or “Keep in mind, you don’t want to take it if you have Q condition”- usually with data and a link attached. The checks and balances is fantastic because most of what I’ve seen has been objective input- both supporting and detracting. There are some smart people here who clearly also have a talent for cataloging their bookmarks!

There ARE real experts out there. I just feel most “experts” are most useful as the basis to start a conversation about something they believe, not end it.

[DyingSucks]

Superior genetics for the win! I have mostly great genetics on my mom’s side, a train wreck on my father’s side.

Fasting, exercise, not eating what my brain tells me to eat (I’m actually “full” maybe 3x/year- if I ate everything I want to eat, I’d weigh 300kg!), Rapamycin, etc- all to, at a minimum, be able to look back and say I used my head to make intelligent choices vs looking back and thinking, “well, of course you’re dying of X- you lazy imbecile” or, “I’m dying of Y, I wonder if I’d actually done those things I researched, I wouldn’t be”.

I’m hoping for, “I’m 105 and feel great- I sure am glad I did all those things…”

It’s the people that do everything right and then drop dead out of the blue that really vexes me.

[RapAdmin]

@DyingSucks

If you did a poll to find out who people view as the #1 expert on aging in America, no doubt, the winner would be David Sinclair. He’s “the man” at Harvard. He’s the genius behind the 2 most well known and promising anti-aging compounds: Resveratrol and NMN.

Sadly, a good example… yes, a vast number of people in the US and around the world are taking resveratrol and NMN because of him, and likely not living much longer than if they were not taking it.

[tdecicco7]

@DyingSucks

I just feel most “experts” are most useful as the basis to start a conversation about something they believe, not end it.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. You have verbalized my frustrations better than could have.

I think you may be correct that digesting information from a lot of people in a forum is the best course of actions as I do recognize all “experts” have there limitations.

A perfect example is my recent attempts to adjust my goal amount of daily protein intake. I have to think Peter Attia fails me there as he has come out in favor of a very high protein intake (say approximately 1 gram per pound of body weight per day), a lot more than most “experts”. Another “expert” recommends somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3 gram per pound of body weight a day. That’s low enough that I have to question the value of that advice. Getting more opinions and more information is the only approach a person can take.

[desertshores]

Spot on.

I don’t disparage any of the gurus, only that we should be cautious in relying too heavily on them.

Halo effect: makes us think that someone, because they are educated and smart in one area, must know what they talking about and give too much weight to their opinion in another area.

Wizard of Oz effect: “an ordinary man hides behind a curtain and pretends, through the use of “amplifying” technology, to be a powerful wizard.”

Every diet and eating plan has had its day with plenty of “experts” to back them up, from Atkin’s to Vegan, timing from many small meals a day to one meal a day, etc.

Many of the things we believe today will end up on the trash heap of history.

[desertshores]

I love this forum and enjoy the ongoing debates about life extension, supplements, etc.
We are lucky to have someone to provide us with this opportunity.

Like you, I find it frustrating to see both sides of protein intake argued by experts, especially when it comes to the elderly.
My mainstay when it comes to determining if I am doing the right thing is regular health checkups and blood tests.
And, how good I feel. For instance, if I tried the one meal a day plan and my blood markers were great, but I felt like crap for much of the day, I wouldn’t do it.

“‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it”

[MAC]

@tdecicco7

I don’t believe they have had any lasting effect on my level of muscle mass (or body fat level for that matter). I have been concerned about loss of muscle and each time consumed powdered amino acids and a quantity of protein as soon as the 3 days were up.

Thank you for sharing your n=1, clearly you sorteed into multi-day fasts without any lasting effects. Clearly, either small effect (your reserves?) and/or very cognizant of returning to setpoint.

I think there are some possible benefits of DR/extended fasting, see some of the work by Longo. CR/DR/TRF might have some impact on cancer mitigation…the reason I am taking Rapamycin and many of my interventions, to slow down this crucial and nebulous (unlike say CVD) all cause mortality pathway. Cancer scares me the most and will cut down even the most “healthful” protocol.

Scientific Articles - Valter Longo (good summary fasting/cancer)

I just very strongly believe in humans (we can’t even measure autophagy), fasting would have to be in the order of 5+ days (and this is a complete guess, because translating the hyper metabolism and metabolic instability of mice fasted for days is likely multiples higher in humans, see below).

@tdecicco7

If I were more convinced about the benefits of longer fasts I would likely have less trouble doing them. There are a number of things I would do differently if I were convinced they it would be beneficial.

“Convinced”…now that’s a holy grail type thought in this forum. If you want to read something very sobering about extrapolating studies in mice to humans and “conviction”, have a read of this paper. Some very good fundamental breakdown between species in regards to aging comparisons and translation. This is my “intuitive” sense…massive translation gap, but I don’t let it creep into my psyche and blow up my spirit and motivation to continue to fight and implement the best science available. That’s why I am here, to learn, iterate, continuous improvement…it’s the human evolutionary way.

Of mice and men

It argues there’s next to NO translation to humans (references CR, cancer…)

Toss CR/DR/fasting/ITP into the dust bin?

6-7400422.pdf

"Various physiological, demographic and evolutionary arguments to show that mice and humans, despite a certain congruence in systemic physiology and a similarity in age-associated disease pathogenesis, have demonstrative differences in their rates of senescence (ME: and this dosen’t even touch on the CNS/brain, where humans and wild type mice (never mind frankenstein transgenic) are VASTLY different). Consequently, the mechanisms underlying the ageing process in the two species are likely to be distinct. The random nature of dysregulation … suggests that metabolic stability is not simply correlated with lifespan, but is a critical determinant of longevity.

Simple extrapolation from mouse models to human systems in studies of the ageing process may …be invalid. I predict that the large increases in mean and maximum lifespan observed in mice under caloric restriction will NOT appear in humans. This analysis predicts that the impact of caloric restriction on non-obese human populations will result in a relatively small increase in mean lifespan and NO change in maximum lifespan potential.

Mice and humans are different beasts when it comes to cancer—a disease typical of old age. Caloric restriction will therefore have only negligible effects on metabolic stability and hence no effect on maximum lifespan. However, it may have an effect on mean lifespan by reducing the incidence of diseases such as diabetes, atherosclerosis and hypertension. But these changes, as demographic studies described in Keyfitz (1985) indicated, will result in only a 3–5-year increase in lifespan—a moderate effect (ME: I will take even a small gain, and hope the totality of interventions is additive).

Because caloric restriction has a negligible effect on metabolic stability, it exerts no effect on the rate of ageing and hence induces no changes to the senescence process."

My takeaway…not betting on ITP or any other singular “mouse” intervention. We know there are dozens and dozens of human mortality pathways (human data). Hit was many as you can, and hope for the best. The more you can layer, the higher the probability of eeking out a longevity signal.

@tdecicco7

In my 60’s I have stressed zone 2 training and cardio doing about 4 hours a week of cardio and less strength training

Excellent addition, you clearly have the muscle reserves, stack on cardio intervention. My exercise routine has always been strength and cardio, again, hedging and hitting as many pathways as possible. Picturing myself as that evolutionary hominen, both strong and fast to outrun the sabre toothed tiger and make it to the next day…or at least faster than the slowest in the pack!

[MAC]

@DyingSucks

Superior genetics for the win!

Yup, identical twin studies show genetics is perhaps 30-40% of mortality up to say 70 (rest epigenetics), but beyond and into centenarian league, it’s genetics. Highly concentrated centenarian populations, have very narrow genetic mixing, and huge familial longevity lineage. More recent longevity research (GWAS) is starting to elucidate the protective mechanisms intrinsic to long lived individuals. CVD, DNA repair…and yes even iron genes!

[MAC]

@DyingSucks

I’m hoping for, “I’m 105 and feel great- I sure am glad I did all those things…”

Second that, and avoid getting hit by a bus.

[tdecicco7]

@MAC

My takeaway…not betting on ITP or any other singular “mouse” intervention. We know there are dozens and dozens of human mortality pathways (human data). Hit was many as you can, and hope for the best. The more you can layer, the higher the probability of seeking out a longevity signal.

I have to agree with that and just about everything you said.

Also, I couldn’t agree more, any individuals result tells us just about nothing. My 50 years of weightlifting and decades with almost exactly the same muscle mass certainly could have influenced my results. Obviously the average individual could experience very different results.

[MAC]

@tdecicco7

My 50 years of weightlifting and decades with almost exactly the same muscle mass certainly could have influenced my results

You mean the 3 day fasting having almost no impact on your muscle? I would think so yes.

What’s your plan with your current state of musculature and swapping some resistance for cardio as you age. Try to maintain a very high level and if you see a drop, re-initiate a higher resistance back? What would be your lower limit threshold of muscle to trigger interceding?

And if I may ask, has high protein intake been associated with your weightlifting to achieve your current state?

[tdecicco7]

I still get a decent amount of strength training in. I do something I am sure you are familiar with, a push, pull, lower body split, repeated twice a week. So I do some strength work 6 times a week. I currently do approximately 8 sets of exercise on push or pull days and 12 sets for lower body. I am also pushing at a bit lower level of intensity. When muscle mass starts decreasing (and I’m sure it must at some point) I will increase the volume and intensity of my training. A small decrease will cause me to react. I have gone to lighter weights for higher reps, usually 12 to 15 for a set. I will not change that as I think it is a bad idea for older people to 1 rep maxes, heavy triples etc. BTW, even though muscle mass has not decreased, my strength has decreased since my late 50’s.

In answer to your question, I have only ever increased muscle mass while eating an extremely high protein diet, like 200 or more grams a day. That’s just my personal experience.

[MAC]

@tdecicco7

BTW, even though muscle mass has not decreased, my strength has decreased since my late 50’s.

Significantly? Any ideas on how to counteract?

@tdecicco7

I have only ever increased muscle mass while eating an extremely high protein diet, like 200 or more grams a day

I figured that. I have greatly increased my musculature with less protein, so it’s all from the physiology of resistance loading. But clearly, I am leaving muscle mass on the table with lower protein intake, but I am trying to balance other pathway hacks such as keto macros, reducing BCAA intake.

[DrRoss]

I think virtually everyone will lose a little mass and strength every decade from their 50s onward. There may be a few outliers…but not many. The goal for life extension enthusiasts is…slow down the process.

[MAC]

@DrRoss

I think virtually everyone will lose a little mass and strength every decade from their 50s onward. There may be a few outliers…but not many

Agreed, but if you’re like @tdecicco7, you build a huge reserve of mass/strength, and thus even though you might “loose some”, you’re starting from a mountain top, not a gulley. As humans, we can intervene and shift/blunt the rate of change of the entire muscle/aging dynamic.

[RapAdmin]

Related to fasting…

Opinion: Changing When and How Much We Eat May Extend Healthspan

[zazim]

I am over 60 and five day water fasts have contributed enormously to the positive changes in my health. My lab tests are night and day different as a result. That is what led me to rapamycin since I think one of the major contributing factors from fasting was the inhibition of the MTOR 1 pathway.

[DrRoss]

For me, I learned about the importance of fasting from my studying the mechanism(s) of rapamycin. Have you read my book Rapamycin, mTOR, Autophagy & Treating mTOR Syndrome? It can be ordered from RAPAMYCIN mTOR AUTOPHAGY & Treating “mTOR Syndrome” - Life Extension

Interest in rapamycin is increasing exponentially. Google reported that searches for rapamycin on Google thus far in 2022 have increased 900%…!

[zazim]

I have not, but I will! Thank you.