You should already know that FDA doesn’t approve any drug without experiments, both in animals and humans, I’ve skimmed such documents myself they’re hundreds of pages long with dozens of experiments. The COVID shots had participants up to 40,000 people for just one brand of shots. I think we already know what they do and can infer from basic biology 101 about mRNA functionality in cells (I can’t understate this enough, I learned about this when I was 20 yrs old 10 pages in a college biology textbook, and if you knew about that one page about mRNA it’s like a puzzle that fits in your mind and you’ll instantly recognize why this invention is so clever).
So you can question the experiments that have been done, including for the new COVID mRNA shots, but you can’t question that they haven’t been done, unless you appeal to conspiracy that they’re actually not real and hundreds if not tens of thousands of scientists are all in a grand conspiracy, which is not likely at all. Appreciate logical consistency here.
I do accept people don’t believe that such ten thousand participant trials haven’t been done or faked, just like some don’t believe all the video evidence of spherical earth. I don’t claim COVID vax skeptics are flat earthers if they believe this, just it’s the same “who knows what happens behind what I personally see?”, and if you were on the ground in the trenches actually reviewing the data, you couldn’t observe all 40,000 people taking the shots and what happened to them. It’s a never ending ladder of skepticism with no solid ground and goalposts that keep shifting.
As for RFK not fulfilling his perceived promises, maybe he realizes he was wrong, how do you know?
I can’t speak for everyone, however, I think that many people who voiced objections were specifically against the vaccine mandates. Although one could technically decline a vaccine, it could preclude you from keeping your job, attending university, etc. That degree of coercion to put a foreign substance into one’s body is highly objectionable to many people.
I am glad that he’s neither banning or forcing the new vaccines. Let’s make them available and allow the people make a decision if they want a vaccine which for a very long time was approved under EUA.
I am not anti-vaxxer and had first 2 Pfizer shots as it was required to maintain hospital privileges which is required to stay contracted with insurance companies. It also made travelling easier esp. Hawaii. I chose not take the boosters. I am considering Novavax, I get my flu every year (also required) and I will be getting my Shingrix soon.
Required for established vaccines with long history of safety not for vaccine that FDA had listed as EUA.
I am not afraid of mRNA. Every viral infection involves mRNA cellular insertion. There is no conspiracy just drug companies try to make money while meeting a demand.
However… injecting mRNA that will go on to make countless copies of the spike protein which will be displayed to the surface of you cells and evoke a very potent cytotoxic reaction is brand new technology. There were definitely more side effects like myocarditis in young men.
There were also conflicting on data on the practice of repeating the booster with outdated antigen. Some data show that it diminished a response to the new variants.
Anyway, I think we learned a lot in the past five years.
It’s just implausibly false, that many people who voiced objections specifically were against vaccine mandates, which implies that they never mentioned gene therapy, turbo cancer, infertility, nuremberg trials, millions dying from it, and whatever else covid vaccine skeptics did and do say.
@Nlo But do tell me about this fantasy ubermensch that only said they were against vaccine mandates and nothing else. Give one example, if it’s many there should be one.
Well, if somebody decided we should all be given saline injections would I object? Yes. Because there is no gain and there could be mistakes made and it gives an opportunity to add something else. I don’t trust them and don’t think politicians should be dictating medical care no matter which side they’re on.
The argument could be made that the biggest threat to our nation is going to be the death of the dollar. Inflation is coming whether we want it or not. On the big things our government has been dishonest with the people in the past, mostly to start wars. Also obviously CIA killed JFK. I don’t know why they do it, but that is the evidence I see. The last time I brought it up I got in trouble, also it is beyond the scope of this site so I’m not going to waste anybody’s time going over it.
I’m pretty sure they do not have the fundamental right to inject us with anything for any reason.
I don’t know if you’re responding to me if so what the relevance is to anything I said. I rejected the notion that the majority of voiced opposition has specifically been about vaccine mandates, and as I explained it’s clear that it hasn’t been.
I did not say that a majority. In fact, I specified that i can’t speak for everyone and shared my belief and experience, so I’m not sure why you are clamoring about false claims.
I said that I believe that many people objected to the mandate because it felt coercive and invasive. For many, this was a question of rights and personal autonomy. This has been my experience and remains my belief on why many people objected. Many people also wanted a lot more long term studies and desired a ‘wait and see’ approach before deciding on accepting or rejecting a new vaccine. I find that very reasonable.
Whether they were also worried about true reported side effects, falsely reported side effects, unknown future side effects, true or false conspiracy theories, or all of the above, for many the idea of being mandated to take a newly developed vaccine was highly objectionable.
I agree many is not the majority. But it’s not an insignificant amount. The characterization that there are many people whose sole reason for voicing objections to the vaccine was because of mandates is clearly false as I exemplified. I can’t think of a single one, but happy to hear about one.
It just doesn’t make sense to me to not take covid vaccines because they were mandated. You can do whatever you would do in the scenario you wouldn’t take them, but then ultimately still do, the end result of your objections would be the same.
It is very common, and some would say, very American. The phenomenon to object to mandates or object on principle is not new. The fact that you cannot imagine that anyone would object based on principles that many of us hold dear, is astounding to me. Your mind certainly works differently than mine.
What I said is it doesn’t make sense to me to not take something because they were mandated. You can object to the mandate in the same way you would not taking it, and still take it. They’re separate objects.
@Bicep@Nlo There was never a mandate in the US that everyone must get the Covid vaccine, everyone had a right of refusal albeit with some consequence.
There were mandates that people get the Covid vaccine if they were in jobs where they were likely to expose vulnerable people to infection. This was about the rights and autonomy of the vulnerable. One’s right not to get the vaccine ends where it begins to encroach on the rights of those likely to die from an infection to not be infected by you.
There was (and still are) good data (large blinded placebo controlled studies performed independently in multiple countries) that the Covid vaccines (including Moderna’s RNA vaccine) were/are effective and safe and that risks associated with the vaccines were/are lower than the risks of being infected with Covid.
There will be another pandemic and the next treatment will have to be evaluated similarly and mandated in high risk settings, I wouldn’t think it should be any different but I do think we’ve learned something about how the narrative should be rolled out.
If the next pandemic were to hit with the same severity at this time, I think many more people will end up dying in the USA (but not the rest of the developed world).
Firing people for refusing to be injected with something is a highly coercive behavior. Depending on the situation of individuals this can result in eviction, defaults on loans, hardship for dependents such as children etc… Furthermore, in an environment where many of these mandates are in place they multiply the destructive force through increased difficulty to get new employment as the ideologically impure unvaccinated person will be ineligible for any positions with mandates in place.
We should be very careful when deploying such coercive tools and reflect on if they really align with the values of the society we want to live in. Many good people were treated in an almost sub-human manner for refusing to be injected. I personally thought it was a disgrace and was lucky to live in a country where the hysteria did not reach that level.
Unfortunately the science, and the messaging, was totally messed up on this one. Lots of places announced these mandates which sounded plausible at first (like nurses, doctors etc), but they continued to double down on them, even when it became clear that the vaccines didn’t really reduce transmission. So the whole argument about being vaccinated to protect others kinda fell flat. Then it just looked like the population was being lied to, which made matters worse. The messaging was all wrong - delivered with an arrogant “know it all” attitude and little humility.
You then also had colleges mandating them for young adult who were known to have very low risks from Covid. That made this become even more of a two-sided ideological battle rather than anything based on science or a rational assessment of risks and benefits.
I also think people also took the word “vaccine” to mean something that stopped you getting infected or transmitting etc. I think 99% of the lay population before Covid thought a “vaccine” basically created a forcefield around you. Most people know they got a shot when you were a kid, and you’re protected for life, or need a booster after decades. The Covid shots on offer were really more like a prophylactic treatment because they didn’t stop you getting infected, didn’t stop you transmitting, and only seemed to last for a few months.
For me, I got vaccinated - first with AZ, then Moderna. At that point, I knew two people hospitalised and one who died from the virus, and I accepted that there was no way of avoiding it altogether. I saw elderly, obese, diabetic people shrug it off, and a keen 38 year old football (soccer) player end up in hospital. So I considered that having a severe case of Covid would likely be worse than being vaccinated, and I still think that was the right decision.
Another problem now is that the trust in authorities and regulatory agencies must be at an all-time low. Right now, mid-2025, I am wondering whether I should get a more modern vaccine before I go travelling this summer. I really don’t want to get ill while abroad and travelling. But with RFK J, the purges of so many scientists, mass firings, communication breakdowns etc - I just don’t know whether I can trust information coming from the US government. Sadly, a lot of places are no clearer. UK guidance is basically “we don’t care”.
The policy makers don’t understand simple human psychology. The minute your force a free product in to people’s hands, most will automatically reject it and be suspicious of it. Have they created an aura of scarcity and exclusiveness by making the vaccine available for free for first responders, teachers, social workers, elderly, there would have been more interest and less resentment from the public… at lower cost.
