Well, you need more than one tablet for the toothpaste or mouthwash…
And the goal with the toothpaste is penetration of the tissue and skin of the mouth (the tablet / rapamycin is not going through your stomach where it gets destroyed by stomach acid) - so yes, rapamycin tablets in your toothpaste or mouthwash is fine.
The goal of oral tablets of rapamycin is different; in this situation the goal is to get the rapamycin into your blood system (not just the cells and tissue of the mouth) so its important to maintain the protective barrier that is integrated into the tablets, so it doesn’t get destroyed in the stomach, and makes it into the intestine and ultimately into the blood.
Does anyone have anecdotal results to share on gum health from either systemic or topical rapa?
I’m really keen to hear what people have been doing and any results achieved please.
Also RapAdmin, have you calculated (or measured) the likely daily systemic absorption dose from your mouthwash? Im nervous of doing anything daily but thinking of a fortnightly oral treatment to coincide with my main rapa dose.
Many thanks
The entire reason for the approval of the rapamycin toothpast clinical trial by Jonathan An’s group at U. Washington was because the initial trial of orally consumed/systemic rapamycin showed good results in terms of peridontal disease and oral health, see here: New Study: Rapamycin Rejuvenates Oral Health in Aging Mice
There is no systemic aborption of rapamycin, or at least below measureable levels if you use Transcutol as the base for your toothpaste. In the clinical trials of topical rapamycin that I’ve reviewed they generally used Transcutol to disolve the rapamycin in, and for its improved skin absorption enhancement benefits, but in the clinical trials they tested for systemic absorption and found more. You can read all the details in the research papers that are linked to in this thread: Rapamycin May Slow Skin Aging (Drexel U. Study)
Additionally, the amount of rapamycin in the toothpaste is a small amount - A reasonable dose is 10mg to 20mg per batch of toothpaste that lasts for many months (see first post in this thread for exact details).
I’ve been taking the rapamycin toothpaste now for about 6 months - all is going well, no side effects noticed.
That’s very helpful thank you. I’m in the UK so transcutol very hard to get. But I’m trying the following dosing protocol:
I took my first oral dose today (1mg after GFJ) but also interdental brushed with another 1mg crushed rapa mixed with zendium toothpaste. Will dose 14daily, increasing the oral to 3mg.
If no improvement in gums after 3 months, I’ll consider using DMSO…
For the past decade I’ve been a “high calculus builder”. This was regardless of deligent efforts: brushing 3x times a day, interdental brushes, many different protocols, mouthwashes, and supplements.
I was told by dentists that this was “just my chemistry”, or to “brush more”.
Since starting a low oral dose of rapamycin months ago, this abruptly change. I still build some calculus, but it is a remarkably less. 80+% less. I used to have visible calculus within a couple weeks of a cleaning. No more. Perhaps rapamycin influenced my gut bacteria in some way?
I’m interested in the topical idea on the gums / teeth. However I worry that various delivery mechanisms such as DMSO etc may be harmful to the enamel. I have no knowledge of it one way or the other. Has anyone done PH testing on their formulations to ensure it’s not acidic?
This is an interesting question - and I’m not a chemistry PHD. But - given that 90% to 95% of the formulat is just regular toothpaste (your choice of brand) and then 5% to 10% transcutol (in my case) and a 10mg to 30mg or so of rapamycin), shouldn’t the formulation maintain the same PH as the original toothpaste? I guess we don’t know for sure until we test it, but another approach might be to just look up the PH of transcutol.
I brush with just 40% DMSO. I read that concentration is what people use for brushing with DMSO. I’m nervous about using Rapa, though in the first week there is no reason to be since the more the better. I should make another spray bottle for the first week with Rapa, second week use the one I’ve been using of pure DMSO.
Now I just need to look up here and see how much Rapa to add. Good Luck,
One other idea that people have discussed is the idea of a rapamycin mouth wash.
I know little about compounding pharmaceuticals… but have been searching around and reading. I’ve found this information on Tacrolimus mouthwash - that might be used as a template, or model for creation of a rapamycin / sirolimus mouthwash.
I will continue to look for more info on this issue. Here is what I’ve found so far - a short excerpt from a compounding pharmacy book:
I’m pretty skeptical of most general dentists because they’re generally way too religious about things that merely have some mechanistic theory but lack empirical evidence (either a tiny effect with limited studies or null effect) when there are other options that can work the same way with potentially less harm. Here are my concerns:
The goal of daily “dental hygiene” is to reduce both supra/subgingival bacteria to below the threshold level capable of inflammation. A shift in bacterial microbiota from gram-positive to anaerobic gram-negative rods is what appears to be the issue, which points to the reservoir being pathogenic gram-negative bacteria in supragingival plaque specifically.
My personal situation is as follows: only brush 1x a day about 1 hour after the last meal of the day with the correct form (note dental textbooks are actually inconsistent!), soft-bristled heads on an electric toothbrush, and specific toothpaste. I monitor for gingivitis (on top of CRP) and go to the dentist for professional cleanings only when necessary (based on personal risk factors) due to the risks of dental x-ray frequency and thyroid cancer (American Thyroid Association official recommendations). Instead of brushing more frequently, a mix of pure 100% xylitol gum for convenience (I do not swallow xylitol), oral probiotics (strain and CFU matters), and sipping green tea as a potential preventative cariostatic and anti-gingivitis measure. This is on top of dietary intervention (prebiotics). I also chew acarbose before meals, which may inhibit salivary amylase marginally (starch-to-sugar conversion). I never mess with mouthwashes except one time after oral surgery as indicated.
There isn’t much actual strong evidence for or against brushing teeth 2x a day, but there is evidence that >=3x a day may reduce enamel via wear and may cause gingival recession - a counterintuitive way to increase the risk of root caries. I also do preventative gum grafting surgery to prevent alveolar bone loss although there is not enough evidence - I have doubts of it causing harm.
5x a week of professional flossing has a small statistically significant effect compared to no effect from self-flossing. So I’m not sure flossing really makes a big difference as high-quality flossing is not usually a realistically achievable goal for most people, and frequent self-flossing may be harmful due to several issues, particularly significant exposure to PFAS. But if one is truly flossing like a professional and got a safer flossing method - please let me know.
I used to use DMSO for arthritis before I started Rapa, read a couple books about it and they say brushing with it works well. So I tried it and really it is much easier than I thought given how much of a pain it is to use on skin.
My theory is that it’s superpower is improving circulation, but I think it hurts the microbes too. I use it on cuts and burns and they heal much quicker. It just seems that any bacteria trying to get a foothold would have a worse time of it being bathed daily with DMSO.
Also I wanted to try it just for awhile to see if I would want to mix Rapa with it and do that to see how it goes. I am moving that way even though I have no trouble in my gums, the dentist is always saying how healthy they are. They never bleed no matter what I do, floss once a day and use stiff bristles.
My health challenge is a couple bad CACs, which means a little heart disease. I think heart disease comes from oral bacteria, per some studies of actual blockages showing oral bacteria in them, so this could be a big deal if it works. I see Lustgarten has out now his Biohacking the oral microbiome III. It’s harder than it looks apparently and I’m dubious that I’m doing anything smart here. I guess if I was really serious I would get Bristle to measure my oral microbiome for me for $150. Nah.
I finally made my first batch of rapamycin toothpaste using the RapAdmin formula and tools. I used the same amount of rapamycin as I do for my skin cream, which is slightly less. I have DSMO, but I opted for transcutol. My main innovation was to add another mixing tool to the process to help blend the liquid into the toothpaste. Primary mixing tool followed by high speed mixing tool. I use a high speed whisk to mix my creatine and whey protein, and the same mixing tool works equally well there. No link but it should be available on Amazon and elsewhere.
My protocol is floss, rinse, water pik floss and then brush (no rinse). Because I had extra toothpaste, I also used my handy finger toothbrush. I may actually keep that.
More new research on oral health and mental health connection:
Six oral health conditions were evaluated: self-rated oral health, bleeding gums, loose teeth, tooth loss, gum disease, and bone loss. A cross-sectional analysis within PATH Wave 4 (2016-2018, N=30,753) compared survey-weighted prevalence of six oral health outcomes according to severity of mental health problems.
Prospectively, PATH Wave 5 (2018-2019) oral health outcomes were assessed according to Wave 4 mental health problems (N=26,177). Survey-weighted logistic regression models controlled for confounders (age, sex, tobacco use, etc.) with imputation for missing values.
Cross-sectionally, all six adverse oral health outcomes demonstrated a statistically significant greater prevalence over increasing severity of mental health problems. For example, the adjusted odds of bone loss around teeth were 1.79-times greater [95%CI 1.30-2.46] at high versus none/low categories of internalizing problems.
