My main concern would be heart attack…
Before cycling I did the sport of Olympic Weightlifting. Two of my gym mates died of steroid abuse in their late 20s…
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Fair enough, thats something we should all be concerned about. I’ll try to dig into the numbers and science a bit when I have time and will report back.
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I just scanned the study, did not give it proper time… but there is a mention that although there is no increase of risk in testosterone replacement therapies there might be if free testosterone is between 180 and 220 pmol/L…
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The crazy amount of steroids taken by bodybuilders cant be compared to the dosages with physician supervision. 1ml 100 -200 mg is pretty common… and patients aren’t dropping like flies… it would be front page news.
You are not comparing equal users doses.
Different studies show that therapeutic doses of anabolic steroids have no effect on muscle strength and athletes’ performance, but the bodybuilders use 10 to 50 times of therapeutic doses.[15]
(Frequency of Anabolic Steroids Abuse in Bodybuilder Athletes in Kerman City - PMC)–17
Your fear mongering on TRT supervised is equal to the nay sayers of rapamycin use.
The cognitive dissonance you show is interesting.
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@David At 66 (female) my supplement stack is similar and then some. Serious question: I’m curious why you included vaccination as part of you’re longevity template?
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Yes, I agree. Testing is a vital component of the total process. I guess I was just looking for potential in roads and modalities that can affect aging that people can use to improve their longevity. The testing would be more of a guide, and or validation.
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I dropped TRT due to developing anger management issues that I never had when I was young. The problem disappeared when I dropped TRT.
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The 30-42% reduced dementia risk for those who vaccinate regularly, just for flu, suggests that the immune system needs regular “excercise” to avoid developing auto-immune disorders, which include Alzheimers.
Also dementia risks are 10x higher in USA vs India, even for immigrants from India. The sterile living conditions in USA may not provide the natural excercise the immune system gets in India.
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We might have to wait for the results of this trial:
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I did not see any mention of lipids on your list. APO-b, or LPa. The importance of keeping these low has been discussed to death in other threads. We discuss it a lot since heart disease and stroke are top killers. To grow old we need to beat heart disease, cancer, and dementia.
Regarding TRT (or HRT for the ladies): I sure wish we had definite answers. A few years back we were told that supplemental testosterone would enlarge the prostate, cause prostate cancer, and wreck the heart. Now that we have large numbers of men on TRT some answers are coming in and so far it looks good for TRT. There are a lot of problems with the data. Dosage and dose frequency are all over the place. If only we had an answer to the question of why women live longer… Testosterone is only part of it. If testosterone does reduce lifespan is it because of the androgenic or the anabolic properties? We have so many analogs of test, dht, and estrogen that we should be able to figure this out by studying all of these compounds.
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My testosterone is 16.4 nmol/L normal is between 11.0 - 40.0 ) is the 1200 a different measurement for you?
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ng/dL measurements in different countries tend to have different units
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I think your 16.4 nmol/L converts to 473 ng/dL
or his 1200 ng/dL converts to 41.6 nmol/L
I talked to TRT specialist a while ago and his recommendation is that total T is not above 35 nmol/L (1000 ng/dL), but for optimization of the free T (which is more important) and should be around 2%… e.g. around 0.7 nmol/L (respectively 20 ng/dL)… in case it is not that high they would go a bit higher with total T on TRT or lower… sometimes even low total T does not mean you need TRT if free T is high enough… this is how much I know.
Freeing T might work for some. For wellbeing (excluding prostate enlargement, hairloss…) DTH is the most important. That is why I was contemplating taking another medicine (Mesterolone) to boost DTH and to consequently boost free T… but after some advice decided I don’t need it atm. I will try freeing some T naturally (exercise, low BF…) and look at TRT if that fails. For young men before getting into TRT you might want to try Enclomifene or Clomifene… which works by stimulating natural T production in testes by adressing inadequacies in the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis…
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A possible caution from Peter Attia re: clomid
- In patients taking clomiphene, Peter always measures desmosterol, lathosterol, campesterol, and sitosterol when he measures the patient’s cholesterol levels and he noticed how high the desmosterol levels were getting in those patients
- He quickly figured out that clomid (generic clomiphene) was doing this
- After taking patients off the drug, it could take a year for their desmosterol levels to return to normal
- About four years ago, Peter stopped using clomid
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Has the Enclomifene the same effect?
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I know everyone wants reassurance and guidelines by checking levels and having goals of optimal levels. The reality is there is no such thing.
One person may do great with a level of 600 and another person may feel great on 1500.Checking standardized trough levels gives you somewhat of a better picture.
I know this is unsettling for a lot of physicians that don’t do this in there practice and for people on this site that like everything clean and neat, and in the package of evidence-based, but we are not at that point yet with testosterone replacement and optimization.
I have been involved with hormone replacement for over 25 years and have found that using levels can be helpful, but how the patient is feeling, what side effect issues they’re dealing with are more valuable. In general, if they are having side effects, the dosing is probably too high. If they don’t feel good, then it is possible the dosing is too low. That’s way over simplified, but something to help people understand.
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Hey Jensen… yes… this is the problem that Maveric78 doesn’t get… normal… is normal and safe. Based on my blood screening as shown here normal testosterone is from 199 - 1586. Under 199 you get a Flag… “L” for Low, or over 1586… you get a Flag for “H” for High.
My doctor and I had a High “H” blip when adjusting my dose 1 1/2 years ago and my testosterone hit 2200 and as one would expect…I got Flagged as “H” for High
Since being on Rapamycin all of my areas are normal. I had to look to find another Flag “L”.
Current testosterone is normal.
When testosterone is high you get a Flag “H” for High. This when working on dose… 1 1/2 years ago.
Here is a flag… is a “L” Flag for Low.
Maybe this clarifies how to read my blood tests. Under a physician supervision… blood tests every 3-4 months. Constant monitoring. Based on my tests… yes all is good.
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Sorry, I responded to this and somehow it got deleted. In Mexico with Wi-Fi service that spotty. I believe the data on vaccines. For Enhancing longevity is pretty good. I’m talking about the typical polio hepatitis, HPV, measles, mumps, etc.
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I believe @Maveric78 has some merit in his saying that testosterone over 1000 might be too high. Idk what scale is your lab using and why normal range is so high… Of course I would check free T first. Maybe consult another specialist… But I noticed that American doctors would supplement T much higher than European doctors who are more conservative. Does any one know why are American doctors willing to go that high? And why American T scale goes so much higher than European? I understand Agetron, that you trust your doctor and that you feel fine on TRT. I am just questioning the rationale behind supplementing that high. I also found that:
" Just like it can be too low, your testosterone can also be too high, and that’s equally problematic. When your testosterone levels are getting into the 1,000 up to the 1,500 ng/dL range—and staying up there—that’s too high, says McDevitt.
Though you may feel great in the short term, in truth, you’re doing more harm than good.
“Your body will start converting excess testosterone into estrogen to help compensate,” says McDevitt. “Estrogen is a proliferative hormone, meaning it likes to get cells to grow. Too much estrogen in a male body is not a good thing; it can cause erectile dysfunction, or low libido.”
Elevated levels can also strain the heart cause other muscles and ligaments damage. “If you think about bodybuilders who are doping, they always have injuries and this is why,” says McDevitt. “It’s just too much.”
Too much testosterone can also cause hypertension, or high blood pressure. It’ll cause the red blood cells to overproduce which can, in turn, create a clot in your blood vessels. You want smooth blood flow, so an increase in red blood cells could easily cause stagnation.
In addition to these, having too-high testosterone levels put you at risk for cancer, cardiac complications, and irritability."
and watched the Peter Attia on the subject… few videos, I can’t find the one to post link, but he said that sadly most doctors are clueless about TRT…
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