Vegetarians/vegans vs non-vegans (the differences)

#21

Hyperhomocysteinaemia is an independent risk factor for CVD. Recent data show a relationship between homocysteine (Hcy) and free radical formation. Since creatine synthesis is responsible for most of the methyl group transfers that result in Hcy formation, creatine supplementation might inhibit Hcy production and reduce free radical formation. The present study investigated the effects of creatine supplementation on Hcy levels and lipid peroxidation biomarkers. Thirty rats were divided into three groups: control group; diet with creatine group (DCr; 2 % creatine in the diet for 28 d); creatine overload plus diet with creatine group (CrO + D; 5 g creatine/kg by oral administration for 5 d+2 % in the diet for 23 d). Plasma Hcy was significantly lower (P < 0.05) in DCr (7.5 (sd 1.2) micromol/l) and CrO + D (7.2 (sd 1.7) micromol/l) groups compared with the control group (12.4 (sd 2.2) micromol/l). Both plasma thiobarbituric acid-reactive species (TBARS) (control, 10 (sd 3.4); DCr, 4.9 (sd 0.7); CrO + D, 2.4 (sd 1) micromol/l) and plasma total glutathione (control, 4.3 (sd 1.9); DCr, 2.5 (sd 0.8); CrO + D, 1.8 (sd 0.5) micromol/l) were lower in the groups that received creatine (P < 0.05). In addition, Hcy showed significant negative correlation (P < 0.05) with plasma creatine (r - 0.61) and positive correlation with plasma TBARS (r 0.74). Plasma creatine was negatively correlated with plasma TBARS (r - 0.75) and total peroxide (r - 0.40). We conclude that creatine supplementation reduces plasma Hcy levels and lipid peroxidation biomarkers, suggesting a protective role against oxidative damage. Modulating Hcy formation may, however, influence glutathione synthesis and thereby affect the redox state of the cells.

Effects of creatine supplementation on homocysteine levels and lipid peroxidation in rats - PubMed.

#22

Thanks a bunch.

Have you seen any clinical / human data?

Any other color, what context did you hear/learn that from?

(Found one paper above in rodents).

#23

I saw that on nutritionfacts.org long ago but didnā€™t look at it in detail, heā€™s made a few videos on homocystine.
Itā€™s a safe supplement and good for other reasons, so no reason not to take it anyway.

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#24

:ok_hand:

For anyone else who want to take a look, see here:

And

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#25

The best form of B12 is cyanocobalamin, itā€™s more shelf-stable and researched.
I wouldnā€™t risk b12 deficiency with any other form. Especially for elderly who have less absorption of b12 and afaik pretty high rates of b12 deficiency.

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#26

Thanks. I got this one after hearing which version Peter Attia used during the early fall of 2023.

Doss that look ok or do you know of any better versions:

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#27

Yeah, thatā€™s methylcobalamin. Peter isnā€™t immune to bad thinking either.
For people with kidney disease other form of b12 than cyanocobalamin is recommended, not necessarily methyl version.

I would buy a vitamin b12 made by a pharma company. Seems itā€™s not easy to find on USA amazon but if you can get a prescription this is good:
Amazon Pharmacy: VITAMIN B12 1000 MCG TAB?

2 mg / 1x week, 1 mg/day for elderly.

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#28

Science points towards that reducing dietary methionine and isoleucine intake can extend our lifespan/health span. As an omnivore and lean meat eater, it is hard for me to become vegan or vegetarian and make that kind of radical dietary adjustment. But I find the associations that are found in the study that the proof refers to in this video, comforting. Even a rather limited exchange of animal protein to more plant protein might be beneficial when it comes to health span.

But then again, those who had a larger intake of plant based protein would most likely also have had a larger general intake of plants/vegetables. So what is the cause of the observed effects on health, the specific increased plant protein in the diet or a general diet with increased food coming from plants?

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#29

[stay tf away from factory farmed food and food from non-wholesome animals]. Idk if grassfed counts, in part b/c itā€™s hard to completely trust the label ā€œgrassfedā€ (also, itā€™s just the genetics of mass-bred cows/chickens - cows/chickens have been genetically bred to be fat, short-living, and unhealthy, which is why grassfed/organic isnā€™t trustworthy)

[fish may be an exception here, though their proteins surrounded by PUFAs get easily damaged by cooking methods]

Idk, Japan has a deer overpopulation issue and Iā€™d be more amenable to people eating limited quantities of deer there, but they donā€™t even want to (thus they canā€™t even sell the meat they hunt). It feels so weird for me to advocate hunting, but it has become the contrarian and least environmentally destructive option, so I advocate for it (when quotas are responsible, hunters really work to preserve habitat that would otherwise go to grazing, see ducksunlimited)

Btw, Karl Pfleger is full-on vegan and often promotes vegan-based diets for longevity where so many others are reluctant to do so.

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#30

I find it strange to believe that veganism decreases PhenoAge and GrimAge, but standard calorie restriction diets donā€™t [i havenā€™t looked at the studies closely, there are probably many confounding variables]. This study seems well-controlled b/c it uses twinsā€¦

In the omnivore group, we observed several intriguing shifts in key metabolic markers. The increase in tryptophan and serotonin, a neurotransmitter synthesized from tryptophan, suggests potential impacts on mood regulation and other serotonin-mediated functions in response to increased intake of tryptophan-rich animal protein in the omnivore diet. Choline phosphate, a vital component in cell membrane structure, exhibited an increase, hinting at increased dietary intake from meat, fish, and eggs. Indolebutyrate, a microbial metabolite, displayed an increase, suggesting potential shifts in gut microbial metabolism influenced by the diverse dietary components. Adenosine, a nucleoside that promotes sleep and reduces anxiety, exhibited an increase, indicating potential changes in endogenous metabolism on an omnivore diet [64]. These findings underscore the nuanced interplay of neurotransmitter synthesis, lipid metabolism, microbial activity, and purine metabolism associated with omnivorous dietary patterns.

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#31

@AlexKChen Do any non-vegans think a vegan diet is the most healthy? I hear extreme diets are for extreme situations.

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#32

I donā€™t think whole food plant based is an extreme diet. Certainly we are capable of processing so much more than plants. This is part of our evolutionary success for survival to reproduction. However, it isnā€™t necessarily part of our success to live long and healthy beyond reproduction.

Iā€™m not WFPB based on animal welfare or the environment ā€“ those are great spinoff benefits ā€¦ but just being selfish - focusing on self interest ā€¦ itā€™s a pretty solid call.

Being crazy or militant on this stuff makes people look stupid. We had Pizza today with real cheese ā€¦ thin crust ā€¦ celebrating our MRIā€™s where we both figured weā€™d have stage IV cancer, as the optimists we are ā€¦ but shockingly, the Radiologist misread the MRIā€™s and we are both clear of any serious disease.

Having occasional high quality meat, or fermented dairy ā€¦ just cannot support saying this is bad for your health. Having meat/dairy as the primary part of the meal, every meal ā€¦ and processed foods ā€¦ like most Americans ā€“ this is the issue.

The quality of the diet is critical - but also the content. I like the Danish and Canadian food pyramids ā€¦ much better than the American one, as it hasnā€™t been corrupted by the food industry. Essentially, keep things simple, eat less, eat more plants with diversity, avoid simple sugars and processed foods.

I donā€™t consider a diet that is evidence based likely to yield the longest heathspan (if one monitors/optimizes items like B12, Omega 3 index, etc) as being that extreme. Itā€™s just not the SAD (Standard American Diet) ā€¦ which Iā€™d argue is extreme. Any diet that causes the average American to lose 10-11 years of potential life, get their chest cut open for bypass, have excessive strokes, dementia, and other disability ending up in a nursing home - that strikes me as an extreme diet.

As a prior carnivore ā€¦ Iā€™m pretty content with the current dietary approach. My wife has been on this for a decade and she is by every measure (even high resolution MRI) quite well. Iā€™m a bit annoyed that her hippocampus is so much better by %tile to mine, which might explain this post.

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#33

I do think that having a reason beyond health (not killing animals, belonging to a tribe/ religion, etc) makes it easier to stick with a particular diet. But if not eating (or using) any animal derived products (honey, eggs, fish, yogurt) isnā€™t extreme then the word is meaningless. I donā€™t care what people want to eat; I just donā€™t think optimal health is a legit reason to be vegan. Is WFPB the same as vegan? I eat a whole food, largely plant based diet, but I have no restrictions against eating milk products or eggs or fish. (And I eat a lot of them).

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#34

WFPB isnā€™t the same as vegan. You can be vegan and have a horrible diet ā€¦ you could have 100% processed foods, no fiber. Rice milk and Oreo diet = Vegan diet ā€¦ technically.

Whole food plant based is a what we do, which is on average 30+ plants/seeds/nuts every day, 70+ grams of dietary fiber, our macros typically are 25-30% of calories protein (and yes plants have all the essential amino acids), 30% or more fat interestingly - but little saturated fat and no added oil, and the rest is complex carbohydrates. We have at least 1.2 grams/kg/day of protein. We have to supplement B12 (which most people on an SAD have to also), and have to supplement Omega 3ā€™s to get a 8-12% index (which everyone on a SAD has to also).

The data looks good in the range of ~10 years life extension with dietary pattern primarily plant based - however this is with the Adventist Health Study - and who knows if a devout heathen who doesnā€™t have all the social connections gets the same benefit. It is complex, as I used to discount all the ā€œrubbishā€ of religiosity, social connections, etc making an objective outcome difference. It may well be in play, so diet isnā€™t the only thing that long lived groups of people who take a similar approach to diet and lifestyle have in common.
In the Adventist Health Study - best longevity was with pescatarians with a little fermented dairy. However there was no WFPB - and typically Adventists who are Vegan have a fair bit of processed foods - so we really donā€™t know the outcome on this as the Vegans did just a hair worse than the pescatarians ā€¦ but this was due to neurocognitive decline and hemorrhagic stroke - both items that will be due to B12 and Omega 3 index ā€¦ which must be supplemented and monitored in everyone (not just vegetarians).
Iā€™d not consider a diet extreme if people are happy living that way (I am) and if the typical alternative leads to markedly worse health outcomes (for example, if I was eating the SAD would we be having this conversation and do you consider the SAD an extreme diet? Based on rate of premature death it seems mighty extreme to me)?
Anyway - I personally advocate for WFPB and if folks want some meat - high quality - make it the side dish not the main meal, occasional eggs, limited fermented dairy ā€¦ all good.

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#35

Extreme has a negative connotation, the more neutral word is it is deviating from the norms, just like going from owning slaves to not owning them was deviating from the normal. Most animal derived products are going to be in the dusty history books when cultured meat is widely available.

Itā€™s perfectly healthy to eat no animal-derived foods now and thatā€™s good enough. A good definition of vegan can include animal products either way, like honey, lanolin derived vitamin d3, and/or oysters.

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#36

It is widely available. It is available in several forms in every grocery store I shop in.
I have tried several types of ā€œculturedā€ meats and none of them are ready for prime time.
The companies that produce them are failing miserably.

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#37

Cultured, or lab grown meat, is not available anywhere except some high end restaurants in certain countries.

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#38

Yes but every reasonable diet looks good compared to a bad diet. The question is a healthy vegan diet more healthy than a healthly omnivorous diet? Iā€™m betting no.

Now, is it better for the planet? Can I gain additional purpose in life by not contributing to killing or tormenting of animals? Probably yes.

My daughter wants to raise chickens for eggs. I suppose that involves killing insects but maybe thatā€™s okay.

Buying milk products from humanely raised, local cows? That sounds okay.

There is probably a way to get the best of both.

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#39

Itā€™s possible you are right - but the data from AHS had significant loss of years of life with Omnivorous diet comparatively. We donā€™t have trials showing different currently.

I absolutely agree that an important point is high quality both on the plant side of things and high quality on the animal side of things probably yields a different conclusion than the current data. However, we do know a little bit of meat and a bit of fermented dairy looks very safe longevity wise ā€¦ but start making it a bigger %, the data supports loss of years of life.

Given that we cannot randomize humans to diets - we have to do the best we can to sort out patterns and outcomes ā€¦ and there has been a fair bit of work looking at increasing relative risks of multiple disease graded to how much animal protein and fat one has. However, weā€™ve not controlled for high quality vs. mass produced ā€¦ as this in an of itself changes the nutrition hugely, including Omegaā€™s, B12, Saturated and total fat.

Absolutism rarely yields much difference in outcome vs. some sensible moderation. Along with that a WFPB diet can and does provide full nutrition, but with planning. Itā€™s an option ā€” but not something too many people fully jump in for ā€¦ which is fine ā€¦ Done properly, I doubt there is much if any loss of life with modest high quality animal products.

So I think we kind-of agree - just coming at it from opposite biases.

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#40

Meats such as ā€œImpossible Meatā€ is technically not lab-grown but plant-based. It has still failed to catch on.

Meanwhile, ā€œlab-grownā€ meat has been banned in Italy.

ā€œDecember 2023, the Italian government implemented a ban on lab and cultivated meats, restricting both the production and marketing of these products.ā€
ā€œLab-grown meat is not yet authorized for consumption in Europe.ā€

I donā€™t think it is going to be available anytime soon and when it is, it will probably be rejected because of taste and texture, just as Impossible Meats has been.