Predicting Alzheimers

Hey there!

I had a very bad experience with the Quest test. The results came back “bad,” which completely freaked me out. I made massive lifestyle changes, including looking for clinical trials to join.

Fortunately, I found one, called the AHEAD trial, that gives you some sense of what their screening tests show (not always the case). After more extensive testing through them, they told me I did not qualify for their trial, which I interpret to mean that my results aren’t as bad as shown in the Quest test.

I had a discussion with the investigators about how their results could be so different from the Quest results and how it had upended my life, which ended with them saying, “That company is going to get sued.” My understanding now is that the test results don’t correlate well with actual progression to dementia. “Bad” test results don’t mean much in practical terms.

As an aside, the Quest doctor who went through my scary test results with me on the phone was absolutely worthless. First, he told me the results were the opposite of what they actually were because he was reading it wrong, and second, he answered every question with “You’ll need to talk to your doctor about that.”

But there is actually a better test that just became available that researchers seem to think is more predictive called the p-tau 217 test, which I’m thinking about getting (because all the lifestyle changes that might prevent or delay Alzheimer’s are freaking hard and time-consuming, so I don’t want to do them all if I don’t need to).

If you want good information about preventing Alzheimer’s, I recommend this forum for people who have the APOE e4 allele (which raises genetic risk): https://www.apoe4.info/

Dale Bredesen’s book “The End of Alzheimer’s Program” is also good. (He recommends many tests, but I found out after I took the Quest test that he doesn’t recommend that particular test.)

Good luck! I know that fear of watching close relatives go through Alzheimer’s and wanting to do everything you can to avoid it.

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Thanks for the post - sorry to hear about the roller coaster. May I ask what battery of lifestyle changes you made?

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Sure, none of them alone are that hard. It’s just doing all of it that becomes taxing.

  1. Following a strict “healthy” keto diet. This is mostly fish, vegetables, and berries with lots of high polyphenol (read “expensive”) olive oil.

  2. Doing aerobic exercise 5 times a week. I did a mix of HIIT and regular aerobics.

  3. Weight training every other day.

  4. Meditating every day.

  5. Walking every morning outside for ~30 minutes.

  6. Flossing twice a day.

  7. Making sure I move at least once an hour and don’t just sit at my desk for hours.

  8. Making sure I always get enough sleep. (This is one of the most important things and was hard to achieve, but easy to keep doing once I figured it out. We put blackout curtains in our bedroom, and I take melatonin plus a big dose of tryptophan (2g) right before bed.)

The following are all just ways to challenging the brain with new and different activities:

  1. Upping the time I spend learning Spanish.

  2. Playing the piano.

  3. Daily Brain HQ games. (These have some data behind them for AD prevention, but I hate them. They are hard, and they were the first thing I quit when I wasn’t so scared. “Games” is a misnomer! When I mention this to people, they often say something like “Oh, I do crossword puzzles.” It is nothing like that.)

  4. Actively trying to have more social interactions with people.

  5. Making sure I smell a lot of different scents every day. (This probably has the least evidence of being helpful of anything I did, but it’s also easy.)

I think these are the big things off the top of my head. They aren’t everything you could possibly do (some people do sauna, exercise while breathing oxygen, etc.), but they are what I felt I could do.

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Very helpful. Thanks a bunch.

I think your list is good, but it is certainly impractical for me to do many of the things you mention.
Unfortunately, genetics plays a big role. The number of things on your list that you must do probably depends on your genes.

“Early-Onset Alzheimer’s Disease
Caused by mutations in APP, PSEN1, PSEN2 genes
Autosomal dominant inheritance
Symptoms develop before age 65
Late-Onset Alzheimer’s Disease
APOE e4 allele is the strongest known genetic risk factor
Over 20 other genetic loci associated with small increases in risk
Heritability estimates around 60-80% for late-onset A

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Its interesting… Alzheimer’s risk in men is significantly lower than females. And, if you don’t have the APEO4 allele, and none of the other major risk factors (e.g for dementia; diabetes, alcohol, air pollution) I suspect your risk is extremely low. I’m not sure I’d worry about it.

The average 65-year-old man, for example, has a 6.3 percent risk of developing AD during the remainder of his life while the risk for a 65-year-old woman is 12 percent, nearly twice as great. There is still uncertainty about whether this is because women live longer. Sex-related effects help to lower men’s risk. One way that sex affects risk is through the male hormone, testosterone. Some testosterone is transformed into estrogen, and estrogen seems to protect healthy brain cells. Men in later life do not experience the massive decrease in estrogen levels that women do after menopause, and that may reduce men’s risk for AD. Sex also affects the danger of various risk factors. One of these, the E4 version of the apolipoprotein gene, referred to as ApoE4, is a less potent risk factor for men than for women.
Source: Alzheimer’s Disease in Men | BrightFocus Foundation.

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What about apoE4, heterozygous? Humor, if you will, my n=1 case.

I’ve known about my 3/4 status for 15 years but never took it too seriously until recently because one of my grandmothers who got some very mild AD before she passed in her 80s seemed mildly cognitively impaired ever since I could remember and she wasn’t otherwise healthy either, nor very smart to begin with. My other grandmother passed at 99 with only a year or two of mild cognitive impairment and she had been a paragon of ill health for life — no physical activity, overweight, frail, diabetic, poor diet, the works — and right up to the very end she had a mind sharp as a razor. Both of them apoe3/4.

I don’t have credentials to show for it and if I weren’t anonymous I’d be too embarrassed to put this in writing, but I’ve always had a mind like a diamond — was identified as a sort of child prodigy, with a measured IQ of 140. At 12 I was reading War and Peace for fun, won several international awards through my teens for fine art productions, was competitive in math meets, published poetry in my home country and someone with whom I spent a couple of weeks at 17 and hadn’t since since, recently reminded me I was casually quoting Schopenhauer. English I only learned in my late teens but at such a level that at some point I had a gig as an editor at a prestigious magazine correcting finer points of usage and grammar in the native English speaking Ivy League literary types who wrote for us. My old boss used to joke that I could pick up the violin over a weekend if I felt like it (though the one thing I’ve never been is musical). But I’ve always been learning something new and eclectic on the side as I seemed to always have extra mental bandwidth that needed channeling. Anyway I’m going on and on not to toot my own horn but to paint a picture.

Fast forward to the present, and I feel like the diamond tip is shattered. It started with the proverbial baby brain since I first got pregnant at 25 and the mental fuzz would wax and wain over the following few years with four back to back pregnancies. Overall the effect was very mild though. When I thought I was done, in 2019, I went on rather strict keto and a serious exercise regimen and toward the end of the year was starting to feel like my old self again. But then caught mono and experienced for the first time true brain fog — cognitively demanding tasks almost made my head hurt. It was a slow recovery over a few months then COVID caught me by storm — after 2 years of unprecedented stress my brain seemed to settle in a suboptimal equilibrium state.

Last year I cleaned up my act again, was on and off of ketosis with very clean eating overall, but very little exercise too other than long walks (it’s my Achilles heel). Got serious about supplements and went on rapamycin too. All this seemed to help although it turned out I was probably getting very little Rapa as I opted for a cheap Indian product that was lately discovered on this forum to increase sirolimus blood levels very little. But my mind was sharpening and I was starting to look great too. Then BAM! — got pregnant again and I feel like baby brain has never been this bad. I have plenty of “mental reserve” to compensate for it outwardly, but on the inside it feels like scrambled eggs up there and it’s a terrible feeling for someone like me, whose lifelong source of inner pride and self esteem was to dance circles around anyone, no matter how smart.

I get forgetful of what I was about to do next, or what I might have just found out. It doesn’t help that my organization skills are piss poor as I’ve always relied on infallible memory. Sometimes I struggle for the word I’m looking for even when it’s nothing complicated — there’s a little delay between when I need it and when I can retrieve it. I’m a US immigrant and English is my 3rd language so maybe my brain is changing in ways that affect the most recently acquired language (meaning maybe I wouldn’t be experiencing this if it were my native language) but the fact that it’s happening at all gives me pause. Also learning difficult things effortlessly, something people used to marvel at my ability of, is now a lost superpower. I’ve been working on teaching myself Latin and Attic Greek and, oh my God, it is hard! I’m making some steady but embarrassingly slow progress in Latin but the Greek just hurts.

I’ve read about the changes happening to the hippocampus during pregnancy and it honestly reads a lot like early, preclinical AD. What is not commonly known because presumably we wouldn’t want to freak out would-be mothers or further depress the abysmal birth rates is that many of these changes are actually long lasting, some perhaps permanent. Also it appears that 5 or more pregnancies are associated with greater odds of dementia perhaps due to the reasons above or due to the dramatic increase in overall estrogen exposure. This being my 5th pregnancy I’ve already seemingly put myself at a higher risk category.

What has changed for the better is I’ve started to make biohacking one of my eclectic interests and know a lot more today about how to optimize my health than I did even a year ago. However, the more I go down the ApoE4 rabbit hole the gloomier things look. PubMed is teeming with articles delineating interventions that are effective both in humans and animal models of AD — but only in non ApoE4 carriers. I’m reading so much that I’m starting to develop my own intuition on the matter, which is that for at least some of these interventions, the lack of response among ApoE4 carriers actually means they didn’t get enough of the dose or they weren’t followed up with long enough. One example is the role of Omega 3 PUFAs — healthy apoE4 carriers in their 30s (people like me) actually displayed a much higher uptake of DHA probably as a compensatory mechanism, so they likely need supplementation at a much higher level than those studied in order to make a dent. Meaning it’s likely not the case that fish oil supplementation is ineffective for us, it’s that we need a lot more of it to make a difference.

The same might be true of ketogenic interventions. They appear largely ineffective for apoE4 carriers in meta analyses and large studies but the few n=1 interventions I’ve seen in the literature of specific subjects being put on a strict keto regimen seem to work — perhaps because they’re stricter, happening under medical guidance and supervision, compared to the looser self directed dieting being assessed via questionnaires, etc.

ApoE4 is the oldest variant among the three, and is probably the evolutionary product of living conditions in hunter gatherer societies where ketosis was the default metabolic state and high cardio output a daily fact of life. So between those conditions and the likelihood of surviving into old enough age for Alzheimer’s to kick in, slim, it was good enough.

Strict keto seems like a must — a necessary condition for staving off dementia, but probably not sufficient.

What else works to move the needle for us ApoE4 folks? All the fancy interventions I’ve researched, from hyperbaric oxygen to hypoxic training seem to all come with the apoE4 disclaimer. Besides I’m a woman with many children so that’s a triple whammy. Some interventions even work for apoE4 males but not females. :disappointed:

I’ve got a backlog of protocols to try but can’t get to them until after weaning the new baby, so roughly August 2024. And I feel I’ll still be shooting in the dark. Exercise of the cardio intensive type that makes me winded and that’s supposed to work I do hate with a passion, but in this case I feel I’ll be doing it at gunpoint. It’s either that or likely going demented.

I want to get back to the diamond sharpness I once knew but don’t know if that’s a pipe dream at this point. Anyway any research you can share about what looks most promising for apoE4 females, I’m all ears. The most intriguing route right now actually seems to be @John_Hemming’s protocol as impaired oxidative phosphorylation and a shortage of AcetylCoA seem to be implicated in the metabolic aspects of apoE4 neurodegeneration. Sidenafil is also on my to-try list. Deprenyl under serious consideration.

Lower brain metabolism in apoE4 young adults, even the very young, has been observed, and it’s even suspected to be congenital. Yet I remember having seemingly inexhaustible pools of mental energy to tackle very demanding, high level cognitive acrobatics so perhaps there are other, rarer genetic combinations we haven’t discovered yet that confer advantages on some apoE4 carriers. And it could be that I’m overreacting as baby brain is real and happens to all women, regardless of apoE status, and I might just be more keenly aware of it now. Either way it’s all in my head, either literally or figuratively.

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@medaura,
I just looked at my old results from the 23andMe genetic testing site, which informed me that they couldn’t find a trace of APOE4. So good news for me, but back to you. I just read a paper on PubMed that discusses what they call the “cognitive reserve hypothesis,” which speculates that those with higher cognitive ability, as determined by years of education, will be more fortified against decline than the more sluggish among us. In other words, the more you have, the more you can afford to lose. Thanks to your grandmother, the one with the sharp mind, you started out with good genes. And you’ve done nothing but independent study for almost all your life, so you’ve done everything right–except for the babies, which have zapped your mental energy. And then you have menopause to look forward to. Maybe this is why,as @RapAdmin noted, women have twice the rate of AD as men.

It must be especially disheartening to have once been brilliant–a diamond as you say–and then to to feel the luster slowly fading. I hope that the decline is more apparent than real, and that the fog is swept away by your usual clarity.

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I have won several awards, including cash awards, in my field of electronic design engineering and as I age, my previous sharp mind is becoming increasingly dull to the point that I recognize some mild cognitive decline. Mainly in very short-term memory and the ability to do math in my head. Also, I was a good speller in the past, but now I have to rely more and more on “Spell Check”
Punctuation has also deteriorated.

At a recent annual physical exam, I was given several cognitive tests. I do not consider them helpful because I passed all of them easily. But, IMO that’s because I was concentrating.
My most common complaint now is “Where did I put that”. My right-hand does not automatically seem to know what the left one was doing"

Unfortunately, I could only find one paper on melatonin and ApoE4, but because of my recent renewed interest in the possibilities of a high-dose melatonin protocol on general brain function and anti-cancer properties, I did come across several articles mentioning the possible use of melatonin in preventing Alzheimer’s.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302222000097#:~:text=In%20vitro%20and%20in%20vivo,effectiveness%20of%20melatonin%20in%20AD
.

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@desertshores I think the ability to effortlessly sustain concentration is the hallmark of the diamond mind. I can get a lot done at a high level IF I concentrate, but it’s now all of a sudden very hard to. I feel the mind’s muscles tiring out fast. In my school days it was widely assumed that I was a bookworm who spent all day hitting the exercise section of our algebra and geometry textbooks, because I was so good. The truth was I never did my homework and could just pull it all out of my ass impromptu because… I could pay attention in class like no one. I could follow the proof and derivation of complicated theorems from the most basic premises by absorbing it as it was laid out on the black board, step by step, so all I had to memorize was the beginning — while others took notes, I just stared at the blackboard and sucked it all in. At the time I didn’t even realize how unusual this was and just shrugged at seemingly everyone else’s “inefficient” way of doing things. I had attention to spare, even on trivial stuff — if I watched a show or movie, every little plot twist was etched in my mind forever, even shitty ones I wished I could unsee and never remember. I’d meet people at a corporate party and make small talk, then next year meet them again and remember exactly what they’d said and bring it up. They’d always be super flattered and impressed. It was just natural. Now it feels like focused attention is a scarce, precious commodity, and my brain is turning into a miser.

There HAS to be something going on metabolically, because it feels like an insufficiency of “fuel” rate limiting my ability to think all the thoughts I need to think at once. Even though my blood markers look great it’s possible to have some sort of cerebral insulin resistance without any peripheral sign of it.

I’m also ambivalent about the notion of “cognitive reserve” @Tim so kindly brought to bear on my situation. On the one hand it helps to have “excess fat to burn,” so to speak. On the other hand I wonder if my brain was just unusually wired in such a way that it took a very generous supply of energy for granted and is more sensitive to any restrictions. I’m 5’3” but my head is very big—finding sunglasses and hats that fit is a challenge. It’s got to be a big brain in there, probably an energy hog. Any small bump in supply might lead to nonlinear deteriorations in performance. Losing Africa as a province was catastrophic to the Roman Empire due to its huge population and lavish habits. A subsistence economy is less vulnerable to outside shocks like that. So perhaps someone with a more modest original setup can be more resilient….

Yes melatonin is on my radar. I have seen that apoE4 individuals tend to have lower serum levels of melatonin for unknown reasons — it might be getting depleted or not produced in sufficient quantities to begin with. But I think it will take a lot more than just that to right this ship. I doubt it will be any one single thing though the closest thing to a silver bullet is probably rapamycin. Dr. Green mentioned having many apoE4 patients doing great — he just treats them more aggressively with a higher dose of rapa and starting earlier. I did definitely feel an improvement while on rapa even though I thought I was taking a huge dose (5mg + GFJ) while in fact I was taking a minuscule effective one because, siroboon…. So I can’t wait to get on the real thing (I’ve bought it, and it’s the Pfizer original from Turkey, not even a generic, but only my husband can take it for now, since he’s not gestating :wink:).

Another mom I was chatting with yesterday told me when she was pregnant she once introduced herself to someone at the grocery store who was the dad of her kid’s bff, at whose house she had done pick up and drop off a dozen times, and consequently had conversation with countless times. So that’s demented, isn’t it? But par for the course during pregnancy. Baby brain is a real thing, a series of physiological changes that really scramble the woman’s ability to think straight. I don’t understand the evolutionary purpose of it but it is what it is. It is reversible in principle but there’s fat tails in the distribution of its duration. So part of me is hoping that I’ll slowly and naturally crawl my way out of this hole once I give birth but time waits for no one so I don’t know that I’ll be the same person upstairs as after my last pregnancy.

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What time of day do you take Taurine? Does it make you tired or sleepy? I used to take it at night for my heart but I don’t remember why I stopped.

Creatine and PQQ both seem to improve memory in humans. Maybe a lack (of synthesis/consumption) in either or both could be causing your decline?

I have read several studies using thiamine therapy… Vit B1, to prevent and even reverse different types of dementia. You might want to look up the PubMed studies and consider taking more B1?

I was taking both of those before I got pregnant. My memory and focus were getting better but I don’t know which of my many supplements contributed to it — I think the very careful low carb eating might have been helping more. But I was still a ways off from brilliance. There’s something more fundamental going on, I think related to mitochondrial function.

Another thing possibly going on during pregnancy that could be exacerbating run of the mill baby brain is that my immune response goes down. I’m normally NEVER sick, MAYBE one cold a year, tops, perhaps every other year. Since I got pregnant I’ve been sick non stop which is actually normal. But I wonder if Epstein Barr or HAV-1 are going from latent to active, and wreaking neurological chaos. I haven’t had cold sores but it’s possible that herpes could be activated in the brain even if not systematically.

To be clear, I function normally and come across as a quick thinking intelligent person. I often get to “genius” level on the NYT spelling bee. But I’m much declined from my peak.

Part of that is that women live longer and AD incidence goes exponential around 70-80 and beyond, so men die before it explodes in prevalence.

For virtually anyone who wants to live to 100 or beyond, if you don’t have Apo E2/2 you will be at an extremely high probability of getting AD unless you (and future science and medicine) find way to mitigate it.

See here for an example of what things look like for late 90s and 100s:

Full paper and discussion below. The conclusion of who will get AD is fundamentally different if we are talking about people who on average die by 77-82 years of age or who on average die in their 90s, 100s or beyond.

(perhaps unless you are Apo E2/2 - even Apo E2/3 start dropping off the cliff with age,

and Apo E2/2 might also once passed 100 years old we just don’t have the data)

So all of us should be focusing on AD prevention as much as @AnUser focuses on minimizing cardiovascular risks.

Exceptionally low likelihood of Alzheimer’s dementia in APOE2 homozygotes from a 5,000-person neuropathological study

Each additional copy of the apolipoprotein E4 (APOE4) allele is associated with a higher risk of Alzheimer’s dementia, while the APOE2 allele is associated with a lower risk of Alzheimer’s dementia, it is not yet known whether APOE2 homozygotes have a particularly low risk. We generated Alzheimer’s dementia odds ratios and other findings in more than 5,000 clinically characterized and neuropathologically characterized Alzheimer’s dementia cases and controls. APOE2/2 was associated with a low Alzheimer’s dementia odds ratios compared to APOE2/3 and 3/3, and an exceptionally low odds ratio compared to APOE4/4, and the impact of APOE2 and APOE4 gene dose was significantly greater in the neuropathologically confirmed group than in more than 24,000 neuropathologically unconfirmed cases and controls. Finding and targeting the factors by which APOE and its variants influence Alzheimer’s disease could have a major impact on the understanding, treatment and prevention of the disease.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-14279-8

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What is the most cost-effective way to get tested for the APOE2 allele? I have not looked into this yet - does the SNP testing that 23andMe cover this area, or is it just the full genome companies?

I believe they provided that info before, but not sure nowadays, if not you should be able to take the 23andme data nand upload elsewhere and get it.

(Might be worth to consider doing nebula or something now that prices are so low for whole genome sequencing btw)

I use Empowerdx for this, and also for MTHFR and PFAS testing. It is all direct to consumer.

I have an E3/E4 so looks dismal by this graph without intervention.

Pretty happy that all the things with evidence are being done… but pretty important to decrease risk as early as possible.

The fascinating thing with the graph of ApoE vs survival without dementia is that an E3/E4 is virtually as bad as an E4/E4 if you live into your 90s

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Other than regular stuff like Omega 3 and exercise, what else is there at the moment?

Many think inflammation is a key driver of aging and a possible driver of Alzheimer’s

“Inflammation is believed to play a key role in the pathogenesis of AD. As such, anti-inflammatory drugs have been investigated as potential treatments to slow disease progression.”

None of this is proven to prevent AD.

IMO:

Naproxen is the safest NSAID for anti-inflammatory properties.

Boswellia serrata is one of the best anti-inflammatory supplements
“The active compounds in boswellia resin, called boswellic acids, have been found to have potent anti-inflammatory properties. Research indicates that boswellia inhibits the production of key inflammatory mediators in the body”

Effective Anti-Inflammatory Dietary Supplements:
Curcumin
Quercetin
Omega-3 Fatty Acids
Ginger
Garlic
Vitamin D
Vitamin C
Green Tea Extract

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