I appreciate your concenns they are valid. if epithalamin had been available at my suppliers, I would have chosen it.
The group around Khavinson has used epitalon repeatedly and it has similar benefits to epitahlamin, so we can rest assured on that account. The question you correctly raise is the dosage.
Confusingly, from a Khavinson article and slide presenation a mere one hundredth or less dose of Epitalon was injected compared to Epithamin. Going by this, the question is rather how much other stuff there is in a 10 mg epitalon vial (which by this reasoning is not pure, despite what is written). “The same effect was achieved by administering a significantly lower course dose of Epitalon (0.1 mg) as compared to Epithalamin (50 mg), which indicates the higher biological activity of the synthetic tetrapeptide”. One five hundredth of the dose!
A mystery. I have asked my supplier and will try contacting the St Petersburg institute, but it will be a happy surprise to get an answer.
5-10 mg is usually recommended for epithalon, but I saw one for just 2.5 - 5 mg. 5mg would be playing it safe, IMO. Start with that the first injections and then go up to 10 mg? But as desertshores points out, there have been no reports of people bummed out by the 10 mg doses that surely many have taken.
I have a fascinating 90-page slide presentation by Khavinson from 2015 that shows data from more longevity studies on T+E. It is behind a pay-wall so cannot link it but if anyone wants I can email it. (one of the slides shows a mere 0.1 mg of epitalon injected IM compared to 10 mg of Epithalamin in the second group) .
I also have a 17-page Khavinson paper describing those trials below is a link it was behind a pay-wall if it doesn´t work I can email. I´m coming round to seeing an increased likelihood of the effects being real. It will have to be quite a scam for the results to be all bogus.
Have you come across any studies comparing dosages?
We’ve started the whole suite of peptides on top of rapa and medical devices. I type as I site inside our at home sit up hyperbaric chamber, 1.3ata for an hour.
Doses; search on youtube, the now place for frustrated MDs to monitize true healthful tips, and bloggers who are self experimentors to share their (and their coaching) experience. Just type the peptide name - dose
The confusion with a few peptide name spellings is; The Russian (30-50 yrs ago) animal organ extract has many components and is weaker then the modern mfgered single molecule peptide. The spelling difference is often just one vowel. ;( ;( Just go to the peptide co websites: core peptides, polaris peptides; THAT is the correct spelling of the modern single molecule.
Theres SOO many typos in doses; 10mg / day might actually supposed to be; 10mcg (1/1000’th). Most peptidese are packaged in 5mg, 10mg, 15mg, 20mg rarely larger although I have seen 100mg BPC-151 viles. The thymus/pituitary peptides are usually 10mg +/- and diluted with 2mg BAC water and injection is around 10u to 20u on a 0.5mg insulin needle. Much easier to measure pulling out the small doses using a 0.5mg needle.
That said I have seen huge doses of 5mg , 10mg per day of some… for bolis acute issues.
Here’s a dose cheat sheet but I think there’s typos in it too re mg vs mcg and 10mg vs 1mg… Too many errors in even research given auto-correct changing mcg to mg here and there…
My first post. I skimmed through the peptides thread and see a lot of interest and some folks asking about sources. Many of the sources mentioned are local research resellers that are sourcing out of China. If the group is looking for very economical purchases there are many options out of China, but the vendor with the most volume and that has been around for a while is QSC. They have started a group buy server where you can participate in group buys of peptides at costs equal to buying in 100 kit quantities ( a kit is 10 vials of the designated dose). They have both a discord and Telegram server for info, but you still will need to order through WhatsApp or email. With bank transfer and crypto as the method of payment. Invite below.
Compounding Rapa is not preferred. Rapa tablets have an enteric coating that prevent degradation. People who have tried compounded Rapamycin find that it usually loses 90% of it’s potency due to not having the protective coating.
Deeinflorida, this may not relate directly to your vision problems, but I’ve come across something related to cataracts that I will be watching closely. It’s a process called Ledinbio by Edinburgh Biosciences which may complete clinical trial work sometime in 2025. The treatment during testing is eye exposure to 415 nm wavelength light for 15-20 minutes 3 times a week for 3 weeks with an 84 day follow-up period. I have not found any more data at this time. The website for more information is: Ledinbio - Edinburgh Biosciences LTD
Something else related to cataracts I found recently is LumenPro, an eyedrop for dogs that uses Lanosterol and NAC. I can’t find much research data at this time and it has not appeared on sites like Chewy.com, only on the site https://shop.lumenpro.com/, but I will watch to see if it’s something more than a new company with more hype than reality. If it really works for animals I may want to try it.
The dog cataract eye drop sounds very interesting . I hope it is not just hype. Regarding the other cataract removal for humans having had cataract surgery it was so fast and uneventful with absolutely no pain whatsoever. I think I prefer that system because it’s quicker and painless. I have a telescope in my left eye, which was inserted by a clinic in London, England, and to remove the cataract to enable the placement of the telescope, they had a piece of equipment that dissolved the lens, I saw stars and the lens had disappeared completely, I don’t know what that equipment was, but I am surprised that we are not using it in the USA.
On both occasions where I could find dosages of epitalon injected in trials, 0.1 mg = 100 mcg of epitalon has been muscularly injected, i.e. one hundredth of the 10 mg stated to be epitalon on the vials and likewise one hundredth of the dose of epithalamin 10 mg that is usually injected. This seems quite clear, from the Khavinson sources, as below.
Is the 10 mg said to be epitalon in fact only 0.1 mg, with 99% being fillers? It´s one way of reconciling this. .
From the article I linked to:
Epithalamin (Epinorm) – peptide complex with molecular weight 1000-
5000 Da extracted from cattle pineal gland. The preparation is produced in flacons (ampoules) by 10 mg for intramuscular administration.
Course of treatment takes 5-10 days (1 injection daily).
Epitalon – Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly tetrapeptide. The preparation is produced in ampoules by 100 µg for intramuscular administration. Course of treatment takes 10 days (1 injection daily).
From a slide presentation by Khavinson: “The same effect was achieved by administering a significantly lower course dose of Epitalon (0.1 mg) as compared to Epithalamin (50 mg), which indicates the higher biological activity of the synthetic tetrapeptide”.
I’ve been trying to spend less time on this site, so missed this, but Janoshik has said that LPS risk is very low - he has not seen it - for peptides. I don’t know about Chinese rHGH though because of eColi…
The peptide testing group that I’m in has a multi-vendor sterility test going on.
It’s rare for people to have injection site reactions/infections), which you might expect to see if there were bacteria in the vial, or reactions to the mannitol filler. The truly cautious will use a 0.22 micron syringe filter.
There are some peptide testing labs that are very bad about reporting anything other than the concentration of the expected substance, but Janoshik has been blind tested and does. He’s the only one I trust.
A rare type of impurity is accidental mixing of two peptides in the same batch. I saw this happen once out of about 500 tests.
Yes, we finished the course, barely😂 The reason I say that is because Actovegin injections are extremely painful. Feels like someone punched you so hard you muscle feels numb with pain or pain and cramping at the same time. HOWEVER. I will do it again. It’s the best thing that healed my husband’s back and his jiu jitsu injury. As far as energy, I feel like I went to being the same energy-wise. I’m back to needing my coffee, or sleep😏
Is the idea that one draws up the full bottle (3 ml for instance) and then filters the full amount into a brand new sterile vial? Or is there a way to use a filter each time a peptide is injected?
My understanding from other posts on this site is that compounded rapamycin powder does not survive the stomach and does not last long enough to be absorbed in the small intestine. However, the compounded rapamycin sold by www.agelessrx.com loses only about 70% of bioavailability (possibly because it is in a compressed pill that dissolves slowly?), which can be compensated for by taking about 3 times as much as commercial rapamycin tablets. Check out “Safety and efficacy of rapamycin on healthspan metrics after one year: PEARL Trial1 Results,” Girish Harinath et al., posted August 26, 2024. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.08.21.24312372v1
There are posts on this study in other threads on this site.
Out of an abundance of caution, I personally prefer to take compounded rapamycin because it can be obtained without titanium dioxide, dyes, talc, poloxamer 188, polyethylene glycol, etc.
I think the 70% loss you are referring to is in relation to the normal Rapamycin pill. Since the coated pill has only 10% absorption and the compounded loses 70%, you are left with only 3% absorption. The enteric coated pill has always proven to be more bioavailable than compounded.
Yes, what you wrote sounds right and like what I was trying to convey (unfortunately I didn’t say bioavailability relative to what - I meant relative to generic). The paper I referenced says “our bioavailability study has previously suggested a 3.5x reduction in potency for compounded rapamycin relative to generic…”
That bioavailability study is the study I should have referenced. It is
“The bioavailability of compounded and generic rapamycin in normative aging individuals: A retrospective study and review with clinical implications,” Girish Harinath et al., preprint
A quote:
“…a higher bioavailability per milligram of rapamycin was noted for the generic formulation (compounded averaged 0.287 (28.7%) bioavailability relative to generic rapamycin in (ng/mL) / mg rapamycin).”
In this paper, subjects were given 5, 10, or 15 mg of compounded rapamycin or else were given 2, 3, 6, or 8 mg of generic rapamycin. (to compensate for difference in relative bioavailability).
I have asked several AI databases.
Only Gemini gave a straight answer"
Epitalon vs. Epithalamin: A Comparative Dose
Epitalon and Epithalamin are both synthetic peptides derived from a natural peptide found in the pineal gland. While they share similarities in their structure and function, there are some differences in their recommended dosages.
Epitalon
Typical dosage: 5 mg daily, administered subcutaneously or intramuscularly.
Research: Studies have primarily used this dosage in human trials.
Epithalamin
Typical dosage: 5 mg daily, administered subcutaneously or intramuscularly.
Research: Similar to Epitalon, most studies have used this dosage.
Note: The recommended dosage may vary depending on the specific health condition being treated and individual factors. It’s essential to consult with a healthcare professional before starting any new supplement or medication.
Key Points:
Similar dosages: Both Epitalon and Epithalamin are typically administered in the same dosage of 5 mg daily.
Individual variations: The optimal dosage may differ based on individual needs and medical advice.
Professional guidance: Always consult with a healthcare provider before starting any new supplement or medication.
Disclaimer: This information is for general knowledge purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult with a healthcare professional for personalized guidance.
On the other hand:
" Potency: Epitalon appears to be more potent than Epithalamin, as evidenced by the much lower dosage used in animal studies"
If rapamycin is an example of translating mice studies to humans then obviously this indicates a much lower dosage of Epitalon.
Just as with rapamycin, we don’t know the proper dosage.
Based on anecdotal reports from various websites many people are taking it in the 5 -10 mg range.
From what I have read 1mg daily of Epitalon should be more than sufficient.
Of course a desk top peptide machine is not used to mass produce peptides The point was… the process of making peptides is the same, just the scale is different as is the machinery and the substrates.
Since DMF is well known it’s super easy to detect. Same for any of the other chemicals that are used in the process. There are no unknowns in peptide mfg. If a testing company can’t detect those accurately they should be in another business.
Fortunately the company I deal with is a pharma company, not a fly by night company with a desktop machine
They mfg chemo drugs and a variety of other drugs, research chemicals and reagents and more… I’ve been doing business with them for over 3 years, buying raw materials for our supplement business (which passed all the independent testing) and cosmetic peptides before I decided to try their injectable peptides. I would not expose my family, my friends (over 20 people that matter to me) to anything harmful. After a year of using their peptides every one we’ve tried has been as advertised.
AI data with equal dose of epithalon to epithalamin is wrong because its based on what certain pundits say which in turn is based on misstated Russian data a hundredfold.wrong.
Epithalon is ca 100 times more powerful than epithalamin.
Here is the answer I got from the Institute that developed Epithalon, translated from Russian (btw Irina made clear she does not want to be contacted anymore)
Colleague, good afternoon.,
To answer your question, in a clinical study, patients were given 10 mg of Epithalamin or 0.1 mg of Epithalon.
This is due to the fact that the effect of the short peptide Epithalon at a dose of 0.1 mg is similar to that of Epithalamin at a dose of 10 mg.
These data were first obtained in a study of the mechanisms of action of polypeptides and short peptides in animals.
Sincerely,
Irina Popovich- Doctor of Biological Sciences, Head of the Laboratory of Peptide Pharmacology St. Petersburg Institute of Bioregulation and gerontology
Why don´t we have gravely ill people from all who have taken 10 mg over years based on the wrong data? Because epithalon cannot be overdosed. The body uses what it can and discards the rest.
The suppliers of course are happy to sell too big doses.
I will make my dosing decision when my thymalin arrives next week, but as of now I am leaning towards 1 mg per day. Why not 0.1 mg?
A possibly irrational fear of being too low - could epithalon in effect be less than 100 times stronger?
Compensate for possibly less efficacy in the subQ injections I am planning instead of the intramuscular used in the protocol
influenced by a peptide forum where people who discovered the data falsehood reduced from 5-10 to one mg “to be safe” (not risk being too low)
I purchased epithalon for 10 mg dosing for 18 months and 0.1 mg dosing would leave me with most long past expiration date.
All underpinned by overdosing with a factor of 10 being as riskfree as overdosing a hundredfold (with a marginal cost).
What remains to investigate is the frequency. 10 days 1-2 times a year is the protocol but . I am seeing new protocols using epithalon many more months per year, possibly in particular for people with markers corresponding to old age e.g. in telomere length. Will reach out to two peptide-knowledgable persons I have come to respect (who understand the misstated data issue, as opposed to the more known Campbell/Seeds etc who havn´t done their home work). If I come up with anything I will report back. Am ordering a hgh-quality telomere test.
As for the thymalin, all is clear. 10 mg/day intramuscularly. The original.
I’m glad to see this information on Epithalon dosing. I started “low” at 3.0mg per day for 10 days but as people asked me “why such a low dose” I didn’t have a solid answer other than I had read the peptide was the active ingredient in the “raw extract” which should inform us that a lower dose would be just as effective. Now we know how much lower!
So I erred on the side of caution. Also good to know my concern about too much is not a concern.
I’ll cut back my dose from 3.0mg to 200mcg, yes still higher then the 100mcg but as noted the excess would be excreted so no harm, no foul there. Just want to ensure this old body is getting “enough”
The point was… the process of making peptides is the same, just the scale is different as is the machinery and the substrates.