Long-term financial considerations of Longevity that affect healthspan

I mean that’s a personal preference and a risk tolerance question you’d have to figure out with someone else, as it’s out of my field of expertise. Maybe this is where an advisor can come in.

All I can do is present data sources on expected outcomes given certain assumptions, which shows it’s pretty close to a no-brainer investment in certain situations.

But it’s not intended to be investment advice or legal advice since I’m not a licensed lawyer or insurance broker etc.

Maybe you can work out something with someone who knows better like just on the track for the day if you feel like driving the motorcycle in a controlled condition for fun is sufficient. And just avoid driving at certain times of the day etc etc. Anything that can work towards your goal of risk reduction such that such an investment would most likely pan out based on the best available data despite a higher risk of loss.

Personally, the fastest fun driving I do is Mario Kart with friends - maybe there will be realistic virtual reality motorcycle driving someday. But if you don’t enjoy life enough - the extra money and disability-adjusted life years may not be worth it. Really depends on the individual and I don’t have an answer for that.

I would say if you can find an SPIA that can guarantee a 15-20% (or more) annual return, you should take it. The only ones I have seen have been in the 4-6% range, and to me those returns are meh.

Might be difficult to find someone at age 90+ and enough companies willing to underwrite the policy so you won’t get uncompetitive fees, but it is quite possible to get 20%+ returns at around that age since they assume old men at that age on rapa will croak anytime. :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, I’m too young and healthy for their tastes, so it’s meh. But I know a few geriatric patients personally.

Hmm… at 90+, I don’t think I’d even accept 20% annual returns on an annuity since it all goes away when you die. So, the actuaries usually end up winning this bet. I’ll stick to what I know and has worked so far… :slightly_smiling_face:

Like I said before, you need to understand the risk factors, especially for age 90+ policies.

There are multiple ones that I already know very well that affect centenarian likelihood ratios (ie FOXO3). Including centenarian smokers genotypes.

I am aware of ways to beat the insurance companies even if someone in age 90s is smoking - you might even get a better return than 20% - the answer is actually very simple and highly evidenced in the literature and enough case studies (as well as my own simulations on how it works mechanistically) - one of them is NRF2. There are also a lot of human clinical trials with indirect evidence but highly powered and biopsy data proving it extensively in multiple areas - but especially lung cancer prevention. The chance of death for an age 90 policyholder losing to the insurance companies is a lot lower when you run it with this information.

I found exactly zero insurance companies that are familiar - not a lack of search effort - and I also studied life settlement investments in depth. And all the current gene therapies that positively affect centenarian likelihood are experimental but very high safety is involved if you have a simple target.

You may consider a centenarian that heavily smokes, drinks heavily, and eats junk food as “winning the lottery” today - but it is already possible to reverse engineer that such that anyone can “win the lottery” with the “insurance casino” by legally “cheating” with gene therapy. Even if one doesn’t have access - there are carefully supervised clinical trials where they could even pay you to do it.

I am quite familiar with cell and gene-based therapies, my dad has tons of experience managing many of these clinical trials all the way up to FDA approval. I have followed every single trial for CAR-T, Crispr, etc myself as well. I have undertaken one myself for pathological myopia with only one eye gene therapy target and literally controlled a slow march towards vision loss/retinal detachment in one eye as noted by 5+ years of annual vision exams. They won’t have a record of CLIA-certified whole genome sequencing results due to privacy reasons unless you hand it to them on a silver platter. They won’t even ask for it when underwriting.

You’re assuming actuaries have perfect information - if you’ve been in this forum, understand how actuaries work (I read through all the actuarial exam licensing textbooks and I’m very familiar with insurance), look at the information available to actuaries and do a small survey of the actuaries doing these tables - it is clearly in our favor.

They aren’t likely to win if you have better information, and they can’t even access your whole genome sequence data if you did it CLIA-certified privately. The key is finding out who is the loser on the poker table. The losers are the insurance companies - I am fairly certain based on enough data on their known awareness of emerging tail risks with experience of beating the insurance companies enough times. They are still focusing on the obvious ones like global warming, cybersecurity, and demographic shifts. Rapamycin or anything similar I assure you is not on their radar from my current extensive search.

And even then the insurance companies aren’t that scared - they have reinsurance just in case. They also can’t attempt to wiggle out of the claim like life settlements - if you’re alive and you didn’t commit fraud with a completely legal underwriting process - they have to pay you

Btw, this is 20%+ returns with the principal portion not taxed. If you decide you want to continually cash out without capital gains taxes say after 5 years there are places like Puerto Rico under Act 20/22 which only requires half the year. Unless the state fails (assuming your state is rated AAA that would be unusual and even then there’s the question of federal government failure supports) you are literally guaranteed by a state guaranty fund up to a limit. 20% returns guaranteed by the state tax-free as long as you keep living is pretty hard to beat, assuming you did a perfect analysis and execution.

“Sticking to what you know” (which may only be a few decades) doesn’t prepare you for fat tail risks that are already extensively mathematically proven and that’s how throughout centuries of the history of the estate and trust managers that operated under the old version of the 1800s Prudent Man Rule ended up losing most of their money - and it’s been multiple times changes over a few centuries with the same group of people sticking to what they know failing again and again. One of the huge emerging tail risks in insurance companies is asset price collapse and currency shock. You can easily verify this with an experienced actuary.

Specifically for almost all the investments you listed they can be affected directly. Maybe you will not live that long to see these events - but for me expecting 100+ healthy years at least - I expect to.

There’s a reason why currently every single large institutional manager (not salesmen or talking heads to retail investors) with tons of expertise only sees US Treasuries as the only ultimate safe haven in a deep recession.

I love this thread, because it came out of an off handed comment about me being in trouble if my life hacks with Rapa and others worked because my 401K was only funded until I was 92. What is also interesting is I started a topic on Sexual health and modalities to help…crickets:)
I guess money has a higher value than sex :slight_smile:

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Money makes a fine aphrodisiac :wink:

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Fame and success are also an aphrodisiac as well. Looks like many people would like Elon Musk’s DNA for their children…

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The problem I have with annuities is that you lose your initial payment when you die. Let’s say you are a 90 year old and an insurance company is willing to give you 20% a year. The time from 90-95, you are just regaining the principal you already invested. If I didn’t buy an annuity, I could use the initial principal to make 15-20% a year through other investments, and I would have doubled my money in five years, while the annuity holder would be back where he started.

The one big advantage of an annuity is it is a fire and forget investment. There is a good chance that when I am 90 years old, I won’t want to be actively investing as money will probably be less significant than my time left on this planet.

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Yep you do lose the money when you die, but I’m not quite sure that’s a significant disadvantage - especially if you reasonably believe and objectively determine that you have extremely high odds you will live long - to me it seems to be the whole point of longevity bet/insurance.

I suppose if one had significant doubts or uncertainty - then this type of insurance is not really worth it.

I would also note in your example, that you could lose your entire amount or most of your investment trying to get 15%-20% unless it is also near-guaranteed returns. You need to adjust that 15-20% returns for risk, which could be far, far less appealing.

That essentially doesn’t happen with the fixed SPIA with the advantage of no-brainer and not as much research needed in terms of execution.

Aesop knew quite a bit about investing back in 600 BC and this still rings true:

“A bird in your hand is worth two in the bush.”

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I received quotes on SPIA contacts from two different insurance companies today. Neither quote took Rapamycin into account. I was considered a healthy 59 year old non-smoker with a 25 year expected lifespan, so neither quote was a smoking hot deal. When I reminded my agent that underwriting was worried about my life span a year ago he replied, "lol, they won’t offer a better deal. They will lower the monthly payout and cut the term. The life insurance I quoted was approved they just wanted more information from your doctor and they never sent it. " So I may shop around a bit and see if I can get a better deal, but I’m not real optimistic. Someone else who is older or has different circumstances may get a great deal. I guess it just depend on how the actuaries have set up the computer model.

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Some great investment and life advice from Charlie Munger, who is 99 years young.

  • The world is full of foolish gamblers, and they will not do as well as the patient investor.

  • If you don’t see the world the way it is, it’s like judging something through a distorted lens.

  • All I want to know is where I’m going to die, so I’ll never go there. And a related thought:

  • Early on, write your desired obituary – and then behave accordingly.

  • If you don’t care whether you are rational or not, you won’t work on it. Then you will stay irrational and get lousy results.

  • Patience can be learned. Having a long attention span and the ability to concentrate on one thing for a long time is a huge advantage.

  • You can learn a lot from dead people. Read of the deceased you admire and detest.

  • Don’t bail away in a sinking boat if you can swim to one that is seaworthy.

  • A great company keeps working after you are not; a mediocre company won’t do that.

  • Warren and I don’t focus on the froth of the market. We seek out good long-term investments and stubbornly hold them for a long time.

  • Ben Graham said, “Day to day, the stock market is a voting machine; in the long term it’s a weighing machine.” If you keep making something more valuable, then some wise person is going to notice it and start buying.

  • There is no such thing as a 100% sure thing when investing. Thus, the use of leverage is dangerous. A string of wonderful numbers times zero will always equal zero. Don’t count on getting rich twice.

  • You don’t, however, need to own a lot of things in order to get rich.

  • You have to keep learning if you want to become a great investor. When the world changes, you must change.

  • Warren and I hated railroad stocks for decades, but the world changed and finally the country had four huge railroads of vital importance to the American economy. We were slow to recognize the change, but better late than never.

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I suspect we’ll see a lot more of these stories over the coming decade:

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Finance is quite important for an enjoyable life and retirement and I agree that most are not well prepared. It can be daunting, but the solution is to start investing as soon as possible.

Here are some other rules for investing:

  1. If your financial advisor or plan underperforms the SP500 for 2 years in a row, it’s time for a new plan or advisor.

  2. Don’t fight the Fed. Don’t own bonds/stocks when the Fed is going to/is raising rates. The Fed is going to pause rate hikes soon.

  3. If you really don’t want to be involved in investing and don’t want a planner, invest in SCHD, VOO or SPY. Broad diversification and you will do as well as the market. SCHD should do a little better as they have a higher dividend yield.

For advanced investors only, my income tip for now:

  1. At this time you may want to look at investment grade corporate debt and preferred shares such as BEPI, BNJ or ATH.PD for yields in the 7-8% range with a potential capital gain of 50% over the next two years. Much better than any annuity currently available and can be passed on to heirs.

These are my personal opinions so take them with a grain of acarbose. Good luck.

Why would you buy an annuity that pays 6.2% when you can get an investment grade corporate bond that pays 7.7%? You get 1.5% more and you can pass it on to your heirs. Also it gets taxed at the qualified rate of 10-15%

Another related story:

  • The classic notion of retirement planning is a measure of savings and time.
  • “Longevity” planning is a more complete framework, said Joseph Coughlin, director of the MIT AgeLab. see: https://agelab.mit.edu/
  • Americans overlook many important aspects of old age. They include transportation, social life and small tasks that may be difficult or impossible. Many of them carry a financial cost.
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