Is reductive stress from antioxidants (esp highly conjugated systems) bad? Astaxanthin?

PDF paper: https://2024.sci-hub.st/6618/2153051f05efb1ccf5f3448825e83f22/ali2018.pdf?download=true

https://x.com/fire_bottle/status/1875773682725069062?s=19

https://x.com/fire_bottle/status/1875789316011782214?s=19

Does SS-31 not contribute to it b/c it’s mitochondrially targeted? Does glutathionine contribute to the bulk of reductive stress? (but glutathionine usually seems self-limited) What about high amounts of green tea/coffee? (it’s usually the phytochemicals that stimulate NRF2 and cause other types of stress that are now mentioned as part of their therapeutic properties) What about melatonin?

Reductive stress is often mentioned in the context of excess NADPH (or NADH) synthesis, or sometimes the context of too much fat synthesis

While fireinabottle is very interesting, I’ve found its ultimate recommendations unconvincing (it may miss the forest for the details - they’re even anti-MUFA, of all things).

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Vitamin E supplementation is no bueno, established circa 2005

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The same seems to be happening with Vit C in that study. Crazy to read!

I knew nutrition is a field of contradictions but all the bad rep of fructose and now vit C seems to not help the story of fruit. Also, observational data show that once you achieve the basic amount you won’t get much benefit, only vegetables.

Vit E needs to be there to prevent lipid oxidation, maybe we just need to consume it if it’s with fat?

We also need to know if this study is talking about tocopherol or tocotrienol. I remember some study that tocotrienol supplementation increased healthspan but not lifespan.

Any thoughts on all these?

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I am guessing rats do not eat a lot of vitamin E and C in their normal diet.

I don’t know about this study. No doubt supplementing with antioxidant vitamins, especially at high doses has risks and downsides. This has been known for a long time, and the effect on exercise has been mentioned in this study.

But what does this study bring to the table? First of all, it’s worth asking whether the rat is a good animal model for vitamin C studies. Rats don’t need vitamin C in their diet in the way humans do, because they make their own endogenously. That is why for vitamin C, guinea pigs are used as those animals don’t make their own. I don’t know if that physiological difference between rats and humans makes a difference in this case, but it’s worth noting. The fact that it wasn’t even mentioned anywhere in this study, and not in the discussion section, is disappointing.

Second, about the dosages used. C’mon, people. For vitamin C, 100mg, 200mg, 500mg PER KG of body weight! So for a 70kg human, the equivalent dose of vitamin C would be 7g, 14g and 35g respectively. Daily. I mean, I know Linus Pauling at one point was taking something like 6g a day, but he was a pretty big/tall guy and the lowest dose here far exceeds that per kg of body weight. How many people do you know who take 14 or 35g of vitamin C per day? Most supplements don’t exceed 1g, and I know of fanatics who take 3g a day (which I think is crazy), but 14 or 35?? How realistic is that in the real world?

For vit. E, they had 50mg, 100mg, 200mg PER KG of body weight. So a 70kg man, would be taking 3.5g, 7g, and 14g per day. Vitamin E RDA is 15mg/day and upper tolerable limit is 1g a day. I would hope there are not too many people out there who gobble up 14g of vitamin E per day, or even 3.5g a day, but maybe I live in a bubble.

I don’t know, friends. I mean, it’s good to know that taking astronomical amounts of vitamin C or E, is, shock, surprise, not optimal. Maybe we need a study showing that slamming yourself in the head with a hammer is unhealthy, but I remain a wild optimist and hope that not many such people walk around, because they’d hardly be able to walk - and frankly I doubt there are many hammer head hitters who would, first, read a study like this, and second, have a moment of enlightenment from it. Same for the 35g/day vitamin C and 14g of vitamin E gobblers out there.

If you take such sci-fi levels of these vitamins, then insulin resistance is going to be the least of your health problems. In the end, I guess the study authors get a pat on the back for effort, but the study gets filed on the other shelf, in the horror section next to Stephen King. Still, the year end budget gets utilized and author credit given, publication numbers topped up, so there is that. Being a grumpy old man, I want those minutes spent reading this study back though.

A PSA: I read it so you don’t have to, and took one for the team.

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Thanks for your conclusions! I didn’t noticed it was that bad of a study

Doses don’t scale linearly with animal size, see: A simple practice guide for dose conversion between animals and human - PMC. The upshot is that a 100mg/kg dose of Vitamin C for a rat translates into something more like 1.1g for a 70kg human (0.1*70/6.2). One packet of Emergen-C contains 1g of Vitamin C. While I agree with your general point that most people aren’t taking doses this high, I don’t think they’re that out-there either.

metabolism scales as M^(3/4), does dose scale kind of similarly to this?

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GLP-1 release and vagal afferent activation mediate the beneficial metabolic and chronotherapeutic effects of D-allulose

Abstract

Overeating and arrhythmic feeding promote obesity and diabetes. Glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor (GLP-1R) agonists are effective anti-obesity drugs but their use is limited by side effects. Here we show that oral administration of the non-calorie sweetener, rare sugar d-allulose (d-psicose), induces GLP-1 release, activates vagal afferent signaling, reduces food intake and promotes glucose tolerance in healthy and obese-diabetic animal models. Subchronic d-allulose administered at the light period (LP) onset ameliorates LP-specific hyperphagia, visceral obesity, and glucose intolerance. These effects are blunted by vagotomy or pharmacological GLP-1R blockade, and by genetic inactivation of GLP-1R signaling in whole body or selectively in vagal afferents. Our results identify d-allulose as prominent GLP-1 releaser that acts via vagal afferents to restrict feeding and hyperglycemia. Furthermore, when administered in a time-specific manner, chronic d-allulose corrects arrhythmic overeating, obesity and diabetes, suggesting that chronotherapeutic modulation of vagal afferent GLP-1R signaling may aid in treating metabolic disorders.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02488-y

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006291X22005502

The approach in the paper is basically to scale by body surface area with an adjustment to account for metabolic rate scaling. It’s a really short, approachable paper, worth a read. I refer to Table 1 often when I’m trying to estimate doses from animal research.