How many are making their own solutions from powder?

If your rapamycin powder is accurately measured, 7 to 10mg with ketoconazole it could be equivalent to up to 40mg to 56mg every 5 days, so an average of almost 10mg/day. This is much higher than the transplant organ patients use (and more at the levels used in cancer studies) and so you are likely getting very significant immune system suppression on an ongoing basis. This is very high risk.

Below are some examples in a high dose (e.g. 10mg/day) everolimus study for cancer patients where there were multiple life-threatening situations, including a relatively sudden death of a 27 year old woman due to e-coli sepsis.

Rapamycin is not a risk-free drug, especially as you increase doses above the regular 5 to 8mg dosing once per week level.

The most common Adverse Effects (AEs) of everolimus therapy were laboratory abnormalities (100% of patients) and infection complications (83 episodes in 15 patients). Infectious episodes of pharyngitis (67%), diarrhea (44%), stomatitis (39%), and bronchitis (39%) were the most common infections. They were mostly mild or moderate in severity (grade 1–2).

In two cases, life-threatening conditions related to mTOR inhibitor treatment were encountered. The first was classified as grade 4 pleuropneumonia and Streptococcus pneumoniae sepsis, whereas the second was classified as death related to AE (grade 5) Escherichia coli sepsis.

A 27-year-old woman with TSC was started on everolimus
treatment because of AML of the left kidney
(60 Å~ 48 Å~ 36mm in size). The other signs of TSC were
facial angiofibroma, hypomelanotic macules of the skin,
and shagreen patch. The diagnosis of TSC was made
12 years earlier when the patient underwent nephrectomy
because of a large tumor of the right kidney. The
patient received everolimus at a dose 10 mg/day and the
trough concentrations of the drug ranged from 4.08 to
5.08 ng/ml. After 3 months of everolimus therapy, a
reduction in AML was observed (40 Å~ 31 Å~ 20mm in
size). During treatment, hypercholesterolemia (309 mg/
dl) and transient leukopenia (3.2 Å~ 109/l) with neutropenia
(1.34 Å~ 109/l) was observed. She also reported
oligomenorrhea. After a gynecological consultation, a
functional ovarian cyst was identified and contraceptives
were prescribed. However, 2 weeks later, she was
admitted to the gynecological unit because of subabdominal
pain and an ovarian cyst (64 Å~ 53mm in seize)
on ultrasound examination. Torsion of the ovarian cyst
was suspected. On the day of admission, WBC was
9.2 Å~ 109/l, the absolute neutrophil count (ANC) was
6.6 Å~ 109/l, the hemoglobin level was 10.8 mg/dl, the
PLT count was − 275 Å~ 109/l, and the C-reactive protein
concentration was 8.0 mg/dl (normal < 5.0 mg/dl). The
patient was advised to continue intake of contraceptives
and everolimus. The next day, the general condition of
the patient aggravated. Her blood pressure was low (85-
/50mmHg). Her WBC and ANC decreased (WBC
−2.4 Å~ 109/l, ANC − 1.8 Å~ 109/l), whereas the hemoglobin
level (11.0 g/dl), the PLT count (185 Å~ 109/l), and coagulation
tests were normal. Computed tomography of the
abdomen and pelvis showed AML of the left kidney (size
as in the previous examination), an ovarian cyst measuring
65 Å~ 50 Å~ 40 mm, and fluid in the retroperitoneal
space with density of the blood. Further aggravation of
her general condition was observed. The patient was
transferred to the ICU and she died after 2 h with
symptoms of shock and multiorgan failure. Blood and
urine cultures collected when she was in the ICU were
positive for Escherichia coli.

Complications of mammalian target of rapamycin inhibitor anticancer treatment among patients with tuberous sclerosis complex are common and occasionally life-threatening

https://sci-hub.se/10.1097/CAD.0000000000000207

What the hell… you’re injecting with “cheap” isopropanol?
Dear God, when you say “cheap” I hope you don’t mean you’re injecting yourself with the grocery store rubbing alcohol. That is NOT intended for injection! I hope you are aware of the different standards for chemical production. The grocery store isopropanol has tons of contaminants that, when used superficially on skin, don’t cause any issues. However, once ingested or injected, these contaminants can bioaccumulate in your tissues. Not good stuff.

Please attempt to source pharmaceutical ethanol. Your other ingredients are fine provided that they are sterilized and are of pharmaceutical/USP grade, but isopropanol is just horrible to use as an injection. For one, it’s toxic; this is not going to be great for your health even at low doses.

I can think of exactly zero pharmaceutical companies that make anything injectable for humans that contains isopropanol.

You’re flying completely blind. There have been absolutely no studies in humans of the pharmacokinetics of injectable rapamycin. Furthermore, your excipients can drastically alter the pharmacokinetics in ways you cannot possibly predict without a laboratory environment.

Furthermore, as RapAdmin says, most of the mice studies are not injected - they are fed it in chow. Even among mice, injections are sparse since it is quite labor intensive to inject hundreds of mice each and every day of the study.

It is by no means a “no-brainer,” because you have completely nil data on how it will work in your body.

Furthermore, how are you ensuring your injections are sterile? I see no mention of your procedures at all. I hope you aren’t doing it in a non-sterile manner, as that risks horrific infections. Given that you state you get your advice from the “internet,” I have a bad feeling about your answer…

I seriously doubt the credibility of both your vendor and your supposed test results.
Side effects and blood test results can only go so far in determining your overall health. The question is what blood tests, and what side effects. Most people, for instance, feel perfectly fine inhaling carbon monoxide, until they pass out immediately after. How you “feel” and what you “believe” are never good measures of how you actually are.

Oral routes are not inferior. They are simply different routes of administration. Injections simply increase bioavailability and/or release profiles. In my opinion, there really isn’t a reason to opt for injections when you can achieve a therapeutic dose via the oral route just as effectively. This, of course, depends on what your end goal is, but I suspect your goal isn’t based on any scientific rationale, but rather dollars per dose. That is not a healthy nor safe way to look at this.

Never briefly read. Thoroughly read. Skimming details leads to disastrous consequences, especially for homebrewed medicine.

Dear Lord! You’re taking 20 to 30 milligrams!? And not only that, but injecting it? No wonder you have mouth sores so severe you cannot eat! That is a serious side effect, not a minor one!

The reason mouth sores appear is partly due to immune suppression, where viruses in your mouth become opportunistic. It’s an indicator that your immune system may be severely compromised. This is not ideal at all.

Furthermore, your dose is many times higher than even the most dire cases of organ transplant patients! How did you arrive at a 20-30 mg dose? What kind of papers are you reading!?

Repeat that last part, but slowly.

The fact that you did not take the time to even Google the definition of gavage before posting concerns me, as that says to me you aren’t really reading or understanding these scientific papers well.

That is not how it works at all. You don’t choose what to read. You. Just. Read.
You can’t cherry pick articles that support what you want to believe. That’s not science, that’s confirmation bias.

I don’t even know how to respond to this.
I’m not even sure you fully understand how ridiculous “relative probabilities” sounds.

Don’t trust, verify. Self-medication is not a “just trust me bro” thing. Not at all.

Not just some people. A damn lot of people.
You’re forgetting that different countries have different laws. And Chinese laws are certainly not up to the standards of pharmaceutical standards elsewhere in the world.

US vendors must pass through far more strict and controlled regulations and quality standards than that of other countries. Even with India, the products that are exported to Europe or the US have to be held to a much higher standard than what is sold within India or other non-western markets. It just isn’t comparable.

How the F did you come up with that math? Sensible probabilities? Brother, you don’t even know what you’re doing to your own body.

That doesn’t even make any damn sense! Knowing basic calculus doesn’t mean you automatically know how to prepare sterile pharmaceutical preparations, let alone know how such an experimental regimen will affect your body.

In addition, nearly every pharmaceutical expert knows how to do that basic derivation. That’s high school calculus, I mean come on! Knowing it off the bat is not impressive.

What is impressive is whether or not you can do this on the fly:

image

Now you don’t need to solve this. None of us do this by hand, we use calculators. However, do you recognize this formula? I’ll give you some credit if you at least know what it is.

In any case, I think you should look up a guy named David D. and his friend Justin K. But I doubt you can figure out what I mean by that.

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He dose not have a brain.

This person is shot, he is attempting to commit suicide by chemical injections.

I am well aware rapa is not a risk free drug. As far as that equivalence u get when taking it with ketoconazole is not necessarily that simple and equivalent to the as high of doses u quote in every way. In any event your multiplication factor used with ketoconazole is way too high. As i have read the multiplication factor is less for injections compared to oral. And for injections 200mg keto… gave at most a 3 to 1 ratio factor as i recall in reading. A couple or so times i forgot to take the ket… and as i recall one of those times after 2 or 3 days i noticed about the highest exacerbation of side effects mainly mouth sores ever. And if you have read all the posts here and the articles they quote and attach then i don’t know how many times it is stressed that overdoses of rapa are usually NOT serious or some words to that effect atleast for those with no disease - have read like that at least 4 different places and some cases they were speaking of over 200mg. I know it suppresses immune system as i have witnessed. i would not attempt nanoemulsions as it is just too difficult and requires some ‘exactness’ etc. And as far as a prior comment about …not using iso-propanol for injections i am afraid u are wrong. For example just google
’ Rapamycin-Loaded, CapryolTM 90 and Oleic Acid Mediated Nanoemulsions: Formulation Development’ though u could likely find the article with less words. Anyway just read that article and u will see they are always using iso-propyl and not ethyl. and i am sure there are many more instances of using iso-propyl in other injections. And now i cannot believe how nit picky one can possibly be - afraid to inject isopropyl rubbing alcohol from wal-mart in small percentage with other substances. Would not even think twice about something of that high of purity as wal-mart would have for rubbing alcohol with nothing else but water ! you are talking about a multi-billion dollar company with very high credentials ! You can be nearly 100% sure they are not going to put anything the least bit harmful in that to be done topically or injected in small percentage with water for example.
How did i arrive at 20 to 30mg injection. For one from the published mouse studies articles periontally(maybe spelling error) injections which showed the most impressive results at 10 to 15mg per kilogram. Using the published 12.3 factor for mice and rats compared to human then that translates to around 1 mg per kg for human and i am like around 70kg so i should be using 70mg and what’s more than that the mice/rats were getting that every day not just every 5th day. Ok for that formula you wrote for one you did not define the parameters or whatever such as K,D,Vd,r,t nor the subscripted. Anyway i would very much doubt that over 95% of doctors would not be familiar with that on the fly’ (eg perhaps double negative incorrect grammar but think u know what is meant) “How the F did you come up with that math? Sensible probabilities? Brother, you don’t even know what you’re doing to your own body.” that could likely be true but neither does anyone else know either. If it was even 10% as bad as what these posters proclaim then i would be a hell of a lot worse off than i am of which as far as i can tell is about average normal aging.

only put them in the capsules right when u are ready to take them. Even though acid resistant they are still fragile so don’t store them for any any long time - like less than an hour for sure unless u know otherwise.

Yes, thats exactly what I’m doing. Keeping the solution in a dropper bottle in the fridge and making up a capsule for immediate use. So far so good. One or two minor side effects as I’ve been very slowly increasing dose - only just reached 5mg/week.
Good thing about having some rapa in solution is that its been very convenient to add to moisturiser cream and toothpaste.

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Please don’t listen to Dan’s advice.

This man injects himself with non-sterile tap water from the Philippines, rubbing alcohol literally from Walmart, and has abused more drugs than I can list in the goddamned USP formulary.

If you want more accurate advice, I’ll give you a breakdown:

Most capsules sold on the market to consumers is not of pharmaceutical grade. In other words, when they are marketed as being enteric coated (meaning they resist bile acids and allow the capsule to pass into the small intestine), they don’t actually achieve this.

Enteric coatings are tightly regulated by the FDA in the US, and by the EU’s equivalent in Europe. As such, only licensed pharmaceutical vendors can acquire and/or manufacture true enteric coatings.

You can test this by filling your capsules with a colorant such as food dye and submerging it in vinegar. If it dissolves in less than 2 hours, or if leaking is visible, it’s no good.

Furthermore, there is a reason why you don’t see many enteric coated capsules sold by pharmaceutical companies - which is that they tend to float rather than sink. Almost all use the enteric-coated tablet form for that reason.

Your strategy of putting a size 0 cap into a larger 000 cap, assuming the 000 cap is truly enteric-coated (which it is likely not), may stay afloat in your bile acids rather than sinking due to entrapped air. Again, you’d have to test this yourself, and you might need to pack the pills with some filling powder in order to make it sink. Also keep in mind that stomach fluids are quite thick, so what sinks in water may not sink in such fluids.

Furthermore, you should not store your rapamycin solution in a fridge, but rather a freezer. This will better preserve your solution. In addition, the shelf life of rapamycin in solution is much shorter than in dessicated powder form, another reason why pharmacy prefers the tablet form. If you continue with the liquid form, be cognizant about making batches in small volumes and using it up fairly quickly.

Ultimately, I think you may not be receiving the full rapamycin dose that you intend with how you are preparing the capsules. You might want to explore creating tablets at home with your own enteric coating. I can provide a guide on that if you’d like to know, but be warned that purchasing equipment to make tablets can get you into trouble with the DEA, which is why I don’t readily post information about it. There are ways around this, however.

P.S. Yes, I recognize the absurdity that the FDA/DEA regulates tablet presses more so that injectable formulations. AFAIK, it’s because tablet presses can “mass-produce” pills for distribution, whereas injections aren’t easily scaled up like that.

3 Likes

Thanks for all that. Yes , I did wonder if the capsules would float!
Ultimately I think I’ll end up buying enteric coated pills at some point in the future.
For the time being I’ll use my existing supply, slowly increasing dose and understand that not all of this may be getting utilised.
I will however try storing the solution in the freezer. I was concerned about solubility at low temps but will try with the next batch.
Also may try packing the gap between capsules with sodium alginate as an additional protective measure!

1 Like

Hey, that’s a neat idea!

Assuming you can pack each pill tightly, you could put a smaller size 0 capsule (with your rapamycin), pack the 000 pill lightly with sodium alginate, and then press and compact the size 0 capsule into the size 000 capsule.

This might actually create an enteric capsule, even if the capsules themselves are not enteric! Alginate is being used now as a natural enteric coating alternative to the usual artifical plasticizers.

In any case, here is a paper I’ve found regarding sodium alginate being used as an enteric coating. However, it seems to be a paper directly from a private company, and it doesn’t seem to be published in any journal, so I’m unsure of its legitimacy.

And there does seem to be a patent on a sodium alginate and shellac solution for enteric coatings:

In any case, sodium alginate is much easier to source and work with than food-grade shellac, so this is quite exciting to me.

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For your information I have now bought ethanol 95% from Philippines as they don’t put any or not as much extra ‘duty’ on it as in usa which makes it quite more expensive here. NOt to say isopropanol was any problem. I am sure those who wrote that article were aware of ethanol but they found isopropanol better for that particular case and if they had any inclination that isoprop… was too toxic or etc. they would have mentioned that. I am even considering going to oral myself because of eg. at best ‘sterile abscesses at injection site’ .See article
‘Pharmacokinetics of orally administered low-dose rapamycin in healthy dogs’ NOt to say that all mine were sterile as atleast one or more in philippines were NOT sterile but likely not sterile but infectious. Those articles that proclaimed better than rapamune were NOT homebrew but professional ::Solid Sirolimus Self-microemulsifying Drug Delivery System: Development and Evaluation of Tablets with Sustained Release Property , another 'Optimized formulation of solid self-microemulsifying sirolimus delivery systems ’ and The influence of co-solvents on the stability and bioavailability of rapamycin formulated in self-microemulsifying drug delivery systems ’ All of those show better than rapamune eg the last says "AUC (i presume means area under curve?) values…than those of Rapamune. Does it mean or did i imply I can formulate as in home brew, NO very likely not esp doing things the way those pro’s do. Especially i cannot do microemulsions either as they are quite critical and difficult even for pro’s.