Ever since listening to Attia’s book and the emphasis he places on maintaining high VO2 max, I’ve wondered why he isn’t pursuing known PEDs for longevity. If something like EPO can keep an elderly person’s VO2 max above the threshold he identified for good activity (I recall something like 20 mL/kg/min), why not use it to keep a person going for a few more years? It looks like there could be increased risk of heart issues, but it would seem possible to use much lower doses than athletes that dope, and possibly balance the cardio risks out with a blood thinner like Xarelto (rivaroxaban).
WADA explains that EPO thickens the blood, which “leads to an increased risk of several deadly diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cerebral or pulmonary embolism.” Athletes who misuse recombinant human EPO are also at risk of serious autoimmune diseases.
it seems in some cases dietary anti oxidants do not go with exercise
I take substances like high gingerol ginger for health as well. in a lot of people’s stacks are there dietary anti oxidants which may or may not have synergy with exercise (though I am not an expert at all on this.) ?
so I have a once a week training program when I dont supplement, this may not be working the best though
Oddly, older people tend to have elevated levels of erythropoetin. They’re modestly resistant to it for some reason.
EPO has many minor effects, but is mostly known for stimulating red blood cell production. Oxygen transport is performance limiting in athletes at higher exertion levels, does the same hold for elderly people in normal activities?
OK, so this is going to be my year for increasing my Vo2 max. I’ve just gotten a new Coros Apex 2 watch that can track Vo2Max with reasonably good accuracy. COROS APEX 2/2 Pro GPS Outdoor Watch
For those who are experienced in this area and track their VO2 Max, what is the dose/response relationship of exercise (e.g. HIIT) and increase in Vo2Max over time? What is the most a person might reasonably expect to increase his or her Vo2 Max over a year of training?
No, @LaraPo, it is not enough. Walking and “moderate” swimming is only a little better than sleeping all day. You have to do HIIT. That’s going all-out in both intensity and frequency.
I’m a retired firefighter who was a member of their stair-climbing team. Every year, we’d do the Hancock, the Aon, and the Sears Tower. Fortunately, I live in a 20-story building, so I was always training. I’m 75 now and still do 100 flights a day.
You make a very interesting point… Have you looked at this in-depth at all? I’m specifically wondering if something like EPO might allow me to increase my VO2 max faster than otherwise? I.e. increase my fitness levels faster than otherwise. I wonder if it might be dosed at lower or periodic dosing schedules to help increase fitness levels faster, without the downside risks that have been identified with higher or chronic dosing?
Your source mentions this:
EPO has been shown to increase performance parameters such as maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max) and time to exhaustion, which is why it’s commonly abused in endurance sports.
Does EPO have any negative health effects?
EPO has significant clinical utility and therapeutic benefit when used appropriately, but its misuse to gain a performance benefit can result in serious health consequences. WADA explains that EPO thickens the blood, which “leads to an increased risk of several deadly diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cerebral or pulmonary embolism.” Athletes who misuse recombinant human EPO are also at risk of serious autoimmune diseases.
How long can EPO stay in a person’s system?
It depends on many factors, including dose, frequency, route of administration, and type of ESA administered. Some newer generation ESAs are designed to remain active in the blood for weeks rather than days to make it easier for less frequent administration when used by clinically ill patients; thus, the detection window of these substances is much longer.
As is frequently the case… cost isn’t much of an issue (80 rupees to the US$):
I don’t remember the number, but the tech who gave me the test said that he must have made a mistake because only professional athletes, like players on the Bulls, have a V02 max that high. But back in those days, I was doing 200 flights a night when I didn’t have a shift, and I would often do it in full gear. Even so, there were guys on the job who could smoke me in the stairwell.
vo2max is a good topic but it is complex. Off the top of my head, here are a few points and a few questions regarding VO2 max:
vo2max is the highest amount of oxygen that a person can burn in a short period (a few minutes). It is the lower of: the amount of oxygen that can be captured via lungs and delivered via the blood vessels or the amount of oxygen that can be used via muscles (and heart, brain, etc). It is thought that healthy human lung capacity is not the limiter.
vo2max can be thought of as a function of maximum heart rate, amount of blood pumped per beat, capillarization to carry blood to / from muscles, maximum lung capacity to capture o2 and dispose of co2, blood / red blood cell volume, amount of mitochondria to use oxygen.
some of these attributes can change quickly but others take a long time. The items that improve quickly can also disappear quickly if not used regularly.
potential rate of improvement will depend upon the starting point and the max potential vo2max. The lower the current vo2max, the more improvement in fast changers is probably available: blood volume, respiratory muscles, mitochondria in existing muscle cells, etc.
I haven’t studied the relationship between vo2max and healthspan/ longevity but i cannot believe that maximizing vo2max is ideal unless everything else is already perfect. Some small regular amount of HIIT is important to stress the system in ways nothing else can, but a lot of HIIT requires a premium in recovery which takes away from time and freshness needed for endurance activities and enjoyment of life.
HIIT done to maximum is true suffering. I only do a few minutes per month of maximum HIIT. I can only bring myself to do it when racing on Zwift.
does Attia say maximizing vo2max is ideal for healthy longevity?
If so, I wonder which components of vo2max drive the effect?
HRV and mitochondria health are my focus at the moment! (Autophagy is a previous one I feel I’ve incorporated enough for now into my lifestyle - fortnightly D&Q and daily Trehalose).
For HRV I’m following breathing exercises. There is strong science behind this approach to increasing HRV. Dr Richard Brown is something of a guru in the field. He has a book and youtube posts:
Who says that it’s not “enough” (beneficial) for a 69 year old? Can you support it with research? Do you believe may be that centenarians do HIIT every day? It normalized my BP and keeps me in a great shape. I do not need HIIT at this age. It can be even dangerous.
I am not in the class of your listed experts, but I would offer the following:
Train for an event like a 5k run. You peak for an event and as @Joseph_Lavelle points out, " lot of HIIT requires a premium in recovery which takes away from time and freshness needed for endurance activities and enjoyment of life." You can measure your V02 max and in addition, see how well you do against peers and their training methods. Make your V02 year sustainable.
I personally find doing longer “repeats” more effective for training than briefer all out sessions. For example, mile repeats vs 200 meter repeats. There is less wear and tear and higher heart rate in my opinion. But basically trust your own experience. Being rigid with someone else’s training program can be a recipe for injury or over training.
At this point in my competitive experience (age 69) I am actually placing in the top of my age group for the first time, and still competitive with my younger self… It is quite sweet. So consider where you want to be 10 years out from now. And train for that also.
It seems that the Coros Apex 2 is accurate to about +/- 4%, or about 2 mL/kg/min in the range of 40 to 55 mL/kg/min that I’m operating in… so its good enough to give me a rough idea of how I’m doing over the coming months. But once a year or so I think I’ll do the full exercise physiology lab-based measure of Vo2Max to compare my ultimate results to what I’m seeing on the watch.
There are 80 year olds who can run the hundred-yard dash in 15 seconds and 75 year olds who can do it in 13. You can HIIT it hard like these guys or you can go for a nice, casual walk. Either way, your choice will be reflected in your overall health score, including length of years.
At 82, I do HIIT training as a by-product of my gym workouts. Some of my resistance training raises my heart rate a substantial amount for short periods. (Not going to run 'til I croak )
I’m not one of those sports geniuses for sure. But today, for instance, when I was running on a treadmill my HR was 102. I exercise every day and it includes moderate swimming, which means 1 km non-stop. Thanks Tim for your concern
American researchers at Brigham Young University analyzed data from 4,458 adults who participated in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES).
Results
In the cells of the runners who ran at least 75 minutes weekly, the telomeres were 190 base pairs longer than in the cells of the study participants who were not physically active.
It normalized my BP and keeps me in a great shape. I do not need HIIT at this age. It can be even dangerous.
