Dr. Attia on Taurine

#126

Back on topic: it seems like the main controversy/issue here should be pretty damn easy to address with a small study in humans collecting some blood and urine samples.

I spent a bit of time doing some searching and there’s a mixture of positive and negative studies; some reporting improved endurance, muscular power (like this: Oral taurine improves critical power and severe-intensity exercise tolerance - PubMed), and others reporting nothing at all. However it’s funny to me that, despite this fairly recent hype over taurine, most of the studies are pretty damn old. People were researching supplementation in the 1980s: Seven days of oral taurine supplementation does not increase muscle taurine content or alter substrate metabolism during prolonged exercise in humans - PubMed

A very simple study (caveat: from Iran, crappy journal) shows a blood peak concentration (86.1 mg/L) occurring 90 minutes after a 4g dose. Half-life was around 60 minutes. Pharmacokinetics of oral taurine in healthy volunteers - PubMed That implies that you can absorb it into the bloodstream, but it doesn’t tell us about intake into cells. From looking at other studies, it seems that Attia is correct that there is limited uptake into organs, and especially muscle. Again, this seems like a fairly trivial thing to measure.

Here’s a fairly amusing one: The effect of 8-day oral taurine supplementation on thermoregulation during low-intensity exercise at fixed heat production in hot conditions of incremental humidity - PubMed Taurine makes you sweat more, apparently? Though it barely scrapes statistical significance

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#127

@CronosTempi It was a rat study and there was a gender difference on paradoxical rise in bp with daily dosing.

Yes i know the renal tubules reabsorb taurinre and that taurine and beta alanine and gaba all compete for reabsorption. As i mentioned i was “wasting” taurine before supplemening but intrepretation of response to supplementing has not been straight forwad. For testing amino acid in urine, I like Doctors Data 24 hour collection (first morning collection not as accurate if you have anything at all atypical going on with creatinine). For home collection of blood AA, I have not been sble to find a good source in the US

I would not be able to do the pre-eating intake of taurine that you do- my esophagus would protest. Possibly from mast cell issues- not sure.

#128

I sympathize. I have had a lifelong condition called “jackhammer esophagus”. Basically, my esophagus spasms and sometimes closes completely for 2-3 minutes, so I can’t swallow whatever it is I’m drinking. Fortunately, it only happens with liquids and only intermittently, like maybe 1-2 times a day, some days doesn’t happen at all. Like I said it’s a lifelong condition, but a couple of years ago I had it formally diagnosed at UCLA after undergoing specialized tests. No cure offered, recommendation was to regularly suck on mints before eating or drinking. Terrible recommendation, I was shocked and appalled - this from the top specialist at UCLA. Just confirmed for me that you must be your own health custodian first and foremost, and always carefully evaluate the advice of any doctor no matter how well credentialed.

In any case, for whatever reason my esophagus is not triggered by my morning drink, but I can sympathize with your case.

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#129

@CronosTempi
New term for me- jackhammer esophagus. Thanks for that.

I suspect a lot of people who found their way here are self-hackers out of necessity. Who learned for whatever reason that have to figure out and decide for themselves what’s best for your own body and never ever do something be it test, treatment, or opined diagnosis only because a doctor said so. A busy narrow minded brainwashed unmotivated person who’se likely not as smart and certainly not as well read. So I thinknwe are on the same page on that.

I used to be better at coaxing what i needed from Them, but ive grown weary of the dance, of the play acting that is needed

The “treatment” for your jackhammer reminded me that the “treatment” from a recent GI was to take peppermint oul and an anticholenergic. Won’t address that In am not absorbing most fats, no doc - another doc / it is NOT my pancreas) tests I took on my own documented elevated cholesterol in stool, and what does reach mitochondria is having trouble oxidizing and instead accumulating intermediaries. Nor would he address that my bike acids, even the primary ones, are not conjugating with glycine or taurine so its no wonder Im not absorbing fats. In glycolosis, burning sugar and catabolizing muscle for energy. Ah jeez of course my prealbumin isnt low yet/ i’m catabolizing muscle you morons- they wait until i’ll have to show up at an ER with edema so bad i cant move to believe i am pretty much starving to desth

Sorry for rant- and it was hard to stop- theres more to the cynicism and resentment- not because they dont know the answers but because they actually stand in my way of my attempts to save my life.

I’ll try to post eventually why i need rapamycin- butvi have not started yet and at this point may muddy things.

Hope your dysphagia is slayed by your cleverness and persistence.

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#130

I am wondering if Magnesium glycerinate taken with Taurine will also have that effect?

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#131

It’s possible. It depends how much you take. Your body can only absorb so much at a time through the Glycine receptor.

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#132

No, taurine and glycine do not directly compete for absorption in the intestines. They are both absorbed through different mechanisms:

  • Taurine is absorbed mainly through sodium-dependent taurine transporters (TauT, SLC6A6) in the small intestine.

  • Glycine is absorbed via various amino acid transporters, including system GlyT (glycine transporters) and neutral amino acid transporters (such as SLC6A19 for small neutral amino acids like glycine).

Since their primary transport mechanisms differ, they do not significantly compete for absorption. But Taurine and Glycine do compete in the process of bile acid conjugation, which indirectly affects their absorption and utilization in the digestive system. Thus, while both amino acids compete for bile acid conjugation, the relative abundance of taurine and glycine determines which is used more.

When taurine and glycine have entered circulation, Taurine and glycine do not significantly compete for transport into cells, since they, like previously mentioned, primarily use different transport systems. However, some indirect interactions could occur under certain conditions.

  • Taurine: Transported mainly by the sodium- and chloride-dependent taurine transporter (TauT, SLC6A6).

  • Glycine: Transported by multiple systems, including. GlyT1 and GlyT2 (SLC6A9, SLC6A5) – for glycine reuptake in the nervous system. And neutral amino acid transporters (e.g., SLC6A19, ASCT2/SLC1A5) – for general amino acid uptake in other tissues.

There might be potential Competition between theire use of shared Transporters. Taurine and glycine do not use the same primary transporters, but some neutral amino acid transporters (such as ASCT2) may have overlapping affinity for glycine and, to a lesser extent, taurine. If glycine transport is heavily up regulated, it might reduce sodium gradients that could affect taurine transport, but this is unlikely in most physiological conditions. In cases of high extracellular glycine, glycine transporters might be saturated, potentially affecting other small neutral amino acids more than taurine.

The conclusion is that Taurine and glycine do not directly compete for the same transporters, but extreme concentrations of one could have indirect effects on cellular uptake dynamics. However, under normal conditions, their transport remains largely independent.

But,Taurine and glycine can, when they both are inside the cell, compete for some (not all) receptors, particularly in the nervous system.

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#133

This said, I take my taurine separated from other substances. This is because that is what was done in the now famous research.

I take large doses of Taurine in the morning and sometimes I take a few grams taurine when I wake up in the middle of the night. Doing so improves my sleep (Glycine does not improve my sleep very much).

Taurine act primarily on the GABA receptor. Taurine and glycine interact with different receptor systems in the brain and do not directly compete for the same receptors.

Glycine acts primarily on glycine receptors, which are inhibitory neurotransmitter receptors in the central nervous system. Glycine is also a co-agonist at NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptors.
Taurine, on the other hand, has several mechanisms of action:

It activates glycine receptors, but at different binding sites than glycine itself
It activates GABA-A receptors (gamma-aminobutyric acid receptors)
It modulates calcium signaling

Both compounds have inhibitory effects in the nervous system and both can interact with glycine receptors, but they do so at different binding sites rather than competing for the same site. Yes, taurine can modulate glycine receptor function, but it doesn’t directly displace glycine from its primary binding site. So glycine is the “stronger” when it comes to activating glycine receptors.

There is a risk if we only look at just one or two physiological mechanisms. It is a jungle in there. In the human body. Absorption, reabsorption, conjugation, activation, deactivation and many more actions related to metabolism. That is why in vivo research is so important. Can we see a net positive effect on certain endpoints? Endpoints that are meaningful in the quest for improved health span and life span?

This is what I can conclude after using several AI models asking about Taurine and glycine absorption and potential competition at different receptors.

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#134

Thank you so much for your detailed review…

When you say: “I take my taurine separated from other substances”, of course that would mean away from any food as well as herbs or ANYA other supplements, correct? Does that go for Glycine as well?

And yes - I totally agree RE “the jungle” comment, lol We dont know how a lot of substances end up working in a human body, still…

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#135

Yes no food. After I wake up, a large dose of taurine is the first thing I take (with water only). Then I wait for approx. 30–60 minutes, then I take the other supplements, which are in my morning regime. Usually creatine, inulin, citrulline, lutein and some days an espresso. I try to draw back on coffee since I am poor at metabolizing caffeine. I easily get overstimulated and have strong caffeine crashes, I also have a hard time sleeping even if I only drink coffee in the mornings. This shows up when I drink coffee three mornings in a row.

I take 9–10 grams of taurine, and nowadays, I also separate taurine from other substances by not taking it every day. The reason behind this is that we want to build up taurine levels in the body, and that can be done even if we don’t feed ourselves with taurine every day. Just because mice get good effects when they are given a large dose of taurine every day, it is not the same as this regime (daily large dose of taurine) translates well to the same human dosing. At the age of 62, I speculate that 10 grams every other day will do me good. I am contemplating taking GLYNAC the mornings when I don’t take taurine.

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#136

thank you for providing the details, it makes so much sense!
I recently started to take a 2 day break for 80% of my supplements stack, including Taurine, to avoid blunting the effects and giving my body a rest… and it saves money, too lol;))

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#138

And you have not had it decrease your cysteine levels in blood? Any changes to bile acid conjugates?

#139

Yes, I have observed a few high readings when it comes to bile acid conjugates. High number 5 µmol/L low number 2,7 µmol/L. I have not seen a clear correlation yet. Next time, I might not take Taurine the week before I go to the lab. Do you have any suggestions for a meaningful approach, when it comes to circling in on potential effects on bile acid conjugates from large doses of taurine? I will be happy to hear your ideas about this potential correlation.

#140

I’m jealous you canneasily get bile wcid testng, like the cool on that shows a full breakdown. I had to do metabolimics test with missing data

Probably as long as your ratio of inconjugated to conjugated is low, thats a good sign (and a healthy microbiome that ca unconjugate )

If you have sny digestive symptoms that are unexpected, then it can be in your radar and you may bev able to push it aroubd like cabbage and brussel sprouts to sequester excess. I’d keep an eye on sny unusual movement in cholesterol level which goes into bile production

Youve anseree my question tho- almost certainly my very low conjugates not due to a paradoxical result of taurine supplementation. Maybe i just keeping dumping taurine overboard no matter how much i take or cannot prrocese it properly.

No change in cysteine?

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#141

I don’t track cysteine.

#142

Thanks. If you ever want to see values in urine, the Doctors data 24 hour amino acid test is a solid choice. Of course elevations can mean either too much or too little in blood but so much easier than blood and does have its own advantages.

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#143

For the uninitiated in this long thread, what degree of correlation exists between serum Taurine levels with that of cellular levels?
Case in point, serum magnesium dont really represent cellular magneium levels even though they are used as surrogate

#144

I haven’t looked for a correlation because you’re right it would be useless- even more so than your great example of cell mag vs blood mag

A good rule of thumb for urinary amino acids for any uninitiated would be if anything is relatively high or relatively low, you want to make sure you know why. If it’s not obvious, it needs looked in to. (And don’t believe the blurbs that come with the results)

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#145

Oh man, I’m sorry to hear that.

Back when I had gastritis really badly, I had a slew of awful symptoms (for example, anytime I would finish eating, my esophagus would break out into uncontrollable clonic spasms for an hour afterwards). I saw two GI specialists and they were totally worthless, they didn’t even mention that they found inflammation on my endoscopy to me, it was an NP that mentioned it to me in a follow up. I remember reading about jackhammer esophagus and even wondered if that was what I was dealing with.

Once you experience a functional disorder, you’re almost guaranteed to realize how incapable much of our medical system is. Obviously there are doctors out there who truly care, many of them truly brilliant, but sadly that’s the exception rather than the rule.

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#146

Yep, tracks with my experience. I developed a case of what I subsequently determined was IBS, in my early 20’s. When the symptoms first hit me back then, I went to one doctor then another, a gastroenterologist. Both were utterly useless, giving nonsensical diagnosis and worse remedies. It was no help. I was shocked. But after more such experiences (f.ex. with ophthalmologists), I reached the conclusion that if I develop some condition, doctors are likely to be of no help at all. I resolved my IBS fully on my own treatment after suffering with it for some ten years (i.e. I likely still have it, but have experienced no symptoms for over 25 years now, it is permanently suppressed).

My conclusion is that doctors are best when you don’t actually need them for a condition - they’re good for tests and prescriptions, but you must educate yourself on your own individual condition and take personal charge. That’s my current position, but subject to change as medicine progresses and docs get better at diagnosis and treatment. Remember, people still went to doctors in medieval times, and had to rely on their knowledge… often it didn’t go well. In another 100-200 years I’m sure people in the future will look at our current medics like we look at the medieval ones. But I’m happy for any progress.

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