What I’m saying is I don’t think there are too many issues combining supplements in one go.
We only take a supplement if we can’t get enough of what we want from food sources. In food, everything is mixed up anyway.
I feel the only things we need to take care with are full on pharmaceutical interventions.
The difference between food based nutrition and supplements is that the supplements can be much higher concentration and dosing. And the difference between supplements and drugs is really a legal definition - its not a functional difference or chemical difference. These are all just chemicals, so its an artificial distinction to talk about drugs and supplements at a functional level.
Sometimes, supplements are reclassified as drugs (as was recently done with NMN). And there aren’t any foods that we regularly eat that have 500mg or 1g of NMN in it, so at the types of doses that people are likely using its probably doing “something”.
All of this suggests to me that we have to be conscious that there may be negative interactions between drugs and / or supplements, and its probably not a bad idea to have a plan for how we are doing to try to identify those negative interactions as soon as possible (via testing).
Most of the longevity scientists I talk to think people are way, way premature (given the evidence) in terms of taking high numbers of supplements and longevity drugs. So many of us here are pushing the envelope.
All of this suggests to me that regular (perhaps monthly and at least quarterly) blood testing to track ongoing results is potentially of great help in terms of identifying potentially negative interactions between the drugs and supplements we are taking.
I agree that taking many drugs at the same time is pushing the envelope, and dramatically increases the likelihood of making a mistake. I think the questions are:
(1) how big of an effect will my mistake will have on my health? (hopefully so small that detection will be hard but not too hard)
(2) is the negative effect reversible? (the answer is probably connected to how fast I fix it, but what if the cause was a change in my body due to increased life stress or a virus that lowered my tolerance for my drug stack?)
(3) how will I know how to react? (in other words, am I keeping sufficient records of intervention timing / doses / quality vs changes in outcomes: blood markers, functional markers, how I feel? How will I avoid the mistake of adding another drug to deal with a symptom I created?)
I need to up my game here.
One simple rule I will implement now is to have only 10 drugs (the exact number TBD). The idea is this: I have to choose which drug to stop if I want to add a new drug. This provides friction to the slippery slope, casual addition of a new drug, while only losing the possible positive effect of an 11th drug.
What’s the groups opinion on the right number? 10, 15, 20?
Maybe we should all be tracking diet, supplements/meds, and biomarkers meticulously and doing regression analysis like Mike Lustgarten. If 1000 people were doing it and making their data and analyses public (correctly, I hope, I guess he is using MS Excel and most of us probably have that or equivalent), we’d probably learn something useful.
I like the idea. I will participate publicly if this group can come up with a spreadsheet or ID a service to use for tracking interventions (pharma, other drugs and concentrated natural chemicals) and health markers (blood, function, subjective). I cannot match the obviously massive time investment of a Lustgarten, but I get bloodwork every 3 mos, and track my RHR, BP, sleeping HRV, sleep time, exercise time. Everything is going well at this point so I haven’t felt a need to do analysis or get ready for a problem. But I am committed to doing better. Step one is to get down to 20 drugs on my way to 10.
Interesting idea. Perhaps with some medical AI to parse the data and come up with some cause/effect relationships it might work… and provide some valuable data.
Really good idea about consolidating data better but also to collect individual data better because now the data is very hard to look at on a specific person. I talked little bit about it here.
I know it’s too much to ask for a detail page as the one I have created below but we should be able to collect individual data in a more standardized way.
I have started to develop on a IT application a while ago to make it possible to individually collect data in a standardized way. I have currently been testing it on me for collecting data every sunday on many different health parameters. Later on it will be possible to do it as a group of individuals some how and when we start doing that we will start to see really powerful and unique data. There are quite much thinking work to get the group functionality in place but step by step forward. On top of this there are most like legal things to take in consideration etc. My plan is to release a first prototype in the end or beginning of next year. If someone wants to be part of beta testing the application and come with feedback on how to develop it further just send me a personal message
What i like to do is vary one part of a stack whilst keeping the rest constant and try to identify a predictable pattern.
Apart from the usual wide ranging stack i have a number of strategic targets to deal with gene expression both transcription and translation. In September i plan on pumping up the volume on all four. I now have identified about 20 HDACi s which i have divided into 5 quartets. I am building a list of ATP enhancers to test as well. I keep detailed records including my weekly blood tests.
@Krister_Kauppi I was hoping you would jump back in on this topic. I will be a beta tester. As you say, I think we should go for something useful before trying to build the perfect tool. Some regular attention will help us to learn more about what will be helpful for an individual and for the group. I expect (hope) to have my stack shrunken to a manageable, lower risk level well before 2024. I have identified the supplements that will not be repurchased; now I just need to actually do it. There was not a single one that I thought was useless.
The possible combinations of those 20 HDACi divided into 5 lots of 4 is quite a large number. Maybe a whole bunch of us could do different combinations at the same time?
I always thought that was true but it turns out it isn’t much. Here’s a reference to the 6 kCal per day per pound of muscle at rest plus an estimate for the extra when not at rest. So 10 lbs of extra muscle = 100 extra kCal per day.
I don’t believe the issue is the basic ability of gathering of the information - there are many platforms for gathering information from google sheets at the most basic, to Kevin Perrott’s OpenCures:
The issue, and I come at this from years of developing software from the product management perspective, is the usability design; the simplicity (automated if possible) and easy of use and the reward mechanisms that keep people using and updating their information.
Its really easy to make a basic information gathering platform (think database), its really hard (and takes a lot of iterations, and usability testing, and funding) to make it something people will use on a regular basis and keep updating their information.
Another new platform that looks interesting is this one, it pulls ongoing tracking data from all your activity trackers, etc.
George, one of the founders, just followed RapaNews on Twitter:
@LaraPo Until you fall down and break something important. Clearly making metabolism as low as possible is not the best way. But neither should the goal be a high metabolism either.
Ppl break limbs all the time, even children. Common among athletes, runners, bikers. Accidents happen. Everything, including metabolism, should be balanced. Any extreme is detrimental imo.
FWIW. "It has been estimated that 1 in 3 women and 1 in 12 men will sustain a hip fracture in their lifetime. It has been reported that 86% of hip fractures occur in individuals aged 65 years and older. Hip fractures are associated with significant morbidity, mortality, loss of independence, and financial burden. In usual care, the reported 1-year mortality after sustaining a hip fracture has been estimated to be 14% to 58%.
"High mortality from hip fractures in 65+ yo men (1 in 12) and women (1 in 3)
My mother had pelvic bone fracture last October after a fall at age 90. It cracked it in two places. She recovered after a rehabilitation therapy pretty quickly. Falling is definitely a concern for any aging person. I had DEXA test done - so far so good. It’s very important to have good balance, besides good bones. Every morning I stand on vibrating platform alternating two and one leg for 10 minutes. Have been practicing it for over 20 years since I bought that platform from China. It’s one of my best health investments. Yoga also helps core muscles and balance. In my age (68) standing on 1 leg for 20 sec is considered normal - I can stand on 1 leg for over 2 min. Good balance is important for both males and females.
I think about Morjorie Newlin. She was a bodybuilder with a still very impressive body at age 87, at which point she suddenly died. Looking at her you would expect at least another decade. Maybe more.
And then we see people who are very frail at 80 making it until 100, sometimes bedridden the last few years.
Sometimes I think we know nothing.
One thing I know for certain is that I’d rather go quickly, sooner, than linger in a highly decayed state.
