“Simple” question.
Is it worthwhile to take Berberine if you are a healthy individual with very good blood parameters and good physical performance?
Thank you guys
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Berberine does not AFAIK inhibit complex 1 unlike metformin.
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This study on metformin and exercise was done on people that are not like you.
Metformin inhibits mitochondrial adaptations to aerobic exercise training in older adults - PMC.
Metformin’s effect on mitochondria energy production makes aerobic exercise feel harder which would logically reduce the level of effort of the exerciser and reduce the positive adaptions. That said, the results seem to have been negative on average but not for every individual in the study. YMMV. I do not take metformin except around my rapa dose when I’m not exercising vigorously.
Berberine does not seem to have the same negative effects. I do not take berberine before exercising in any case.
But why take berberine if you are so healthy? What are you hoping to change?
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Hi
The positive effects of bernerine on gut health and also anti-inflammatory effects. But I understand that the potency comparing it to other interventions might not be big for the latter.
And in the day I take rapamycin I would take also to control better my glucose, although, every time I measured, it was adequate.
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FYI. I recall reading that berberine has a multiplier effect on some medications…perhaps rapamycin is one of the affected meds.
I think it is without checking.
Berberine is also an HDACi.
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The article you posted avove, from found my fitness say:
“The increased bioavailability of metformin when used with berberine raises particular concerns due to the compounds’ capacity to decrease blood glucose levels. Caution is advised when taking the two together.”
Berberine is CYP3A4 inhibitor.
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Remember as was pointed out in another thread:
Galantamine + Metformin prevents sarcopenia and may even increase muscle growth. Apparently supplementing with galantamine offsets any negative effects metformin may have on exercise.
Galantamine has a number of health benefits, mainly for the brain, this was the first time that I found out about the possible benefits it may have on muscle gain.
Personally, I am taking 12 to 16 mg of galantamine daily + 500 mg of metformin. I also take berberine daily to help reduce blood glucose levels.
This is a re-post of an article first posted by Rap Admin:
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Here is a time clip from a Rhonda Patrick interview with Peter Attia where they talk about that Berberine has similar toxic properties as metformin. (Maybe this is also interesting for you @Joseph_Lavelle)
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Looking a bit further there is evidence of berberine inhibiting complex 1.
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According to the paper Berberine seems to inhibit complex 1 in lipid metabolism leading to increase glucose metabolism. The paper speaks to intestinal and liver mitochondria effects which may speak to the poor bioavailability of berberine.
In any case, my personal experience is metformin make HIIT feel harder. Berberine has zero subjective effect on my HIIT nor did it have much effect on my blood glucose levels when I wore a cgm. Metformin did have an effect. It isn’t surprising to that a pharmaceutical would be more powerful than a $10/month supplement.
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@Krister_Kauppi Thanks. Attia was where I first heard of berberine many years ago. Back then he said metformin and berberine were roughly equivalent but he preferred metformin for the quality control of pharmaceuticals. I find the two to be quite different. I’m not sure what the benefit of berberine is at this point although I still take it. I find no positive or negative effects from berberine. Metformin has a definite blood sugar lowering effect measures via CGM but it has negative side effects that limit my use to 3 days every 2-3 weeks when I take rapa.
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Did you see any effect on your lipids?
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I understand berberine is supposed to lower apoB by increasing LDL receptors…the effect must be too small to notice amid my big hammer pharmaceuticals: bempedoic acid and ezetimibe
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Thanks for sharing but curious question, what is your purpose with berberine if it does not have any effect on either your glucose or lipid levels?
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I started it for glucose. I assumed it was helping but when i tested it while wearing a cgm it didn’t seem to make a difference. Now I’m just running through my supply.
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What makes you think that the differences between OP and the subjects in this trial make the results not translate to him?
… in mice that are sedentary throughout their lives. That doesn’t mean that metformin alone, or metformin plus galantamine, don’t counteract some of the adaptations to exercise.
FWIW, Kaeberlein said that he believes berberine has the same primary mechanism of action as metformin and expects it to have the same problematic effects, although he thinks it’s a good drug for diabetes. He first alludes to this here; they then discuss a case study of someone coming off of metformin, and then he loops back to it here.
I didn’t say the results would not translate but I thought it relevant to point out that the study was on obese people with poor insulin sensitivity. I inferred the test subjects also had low physical fitness given the level of effort involved in the testing…that resulted in improvements in fitness.
The question was posed by a self reported “healthy individual with very good blood parameters and good physical performance”
Seems like a relevant difference to consider. That doesn’t mean the results won’t be the same for a fit person. Heck, the results weren’t the same for the test subjects….varied widely but the headline is about the average effect.
Still at least it is a study of people which is better than a studies of mice living in a cage and worms in a dish.
I think it is fair to conclude that metformin is a good drug for lowering blood sugar from high levels which would otherwise be damaging the body in multiple ways. I think this conclusion holds even for people (with high blood sugar) who are trying to improve fitness. People without high blood sugar shouldn’t take metformin as an exercise memetic to get a longevity effect…they should exercise to get an exercise effect.
Berberine seems like a weak intervention. Use a cgm to see if it has any measurable blood sugar benefit. I didn’t for me. Perhaps it has a beneficial gut microbiome effect …but how can anyone tell? Eat a wide variety of plants to feed a diverse gut microbiome. Measure gut health by poop health
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IMO: Berberine is an overhyped supplement. As far as I can tell, the benefits are very small. I have been taking and experimenting with berberine for years, mainly because of the hype surrounding it.
I have been taking 1.5 -3 grams daily. I have experimented with the dosage and checked my blood sugar. If it has any effect, it is minimal and within the margin of error of my glucose-measuring devices.
When I run out of my current supply I won’t be ordering it again. Still another questionable supplement that I can take off my list.
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Any supplement or prescription-free alternative to Galantamine to combine with metformin to avoid its limitations on exercise gains? My partner has to take metformin and I’m not sure zone 2 cardio is worth her effort beyond the ridiculous caloric burn.