Yes, for muscle recovery… meat protein is better than plant at equal amounts.
The right kind of protein after training can boost recovery - Futurity
The right kind of protein after training can boost recovery - Futurity The right kind of protein after training can boost recovery - Futurity
Brad is not done yet…
Snickers w/protein? 
Surely the answer to this is “perfect for what?”
It depends what you’re optimising for. If you’re wanting maximum hypertrophy, you can push protein really high and squeeze out more gains (as long as you have sufficient training stimulus etc). There’s obviously diminishing returns at a certain point.
There’s a very nice article about it here: Protein Science Updated: Why It's Time to Move Beyond the “1.6-2.2g/kg” Rule • Stronger by Science
it appears that higher protein intakes are predictive of increases in fat-free mass up to around 2.3-2.4g/kg.
However, this isn’t the bodybuilding.com forum, so getting maximally jacked probably isn’t the goal for most people here. I think it’s well established that the protein → mTORC1 and IGF-1 pathway is generally inversely correlated with longevity, and Valter Longo is a proponent of that, and I don’t think he’s wrong. But, I also think it’s premature to advocate for any sort of protein-limited diet in humans, because there are SO many benefits from muscle mass. Muscle keeps you fit and active and mobile, it prevents frailty, protects against injury, greatly improves quality of life, protects you from periods of sickness (like if you get a terrible flu, you lose weight), has metabolic benefits in glucose disposal etc etc. I think Attia is 100% right when he says there’s no 80 year old who wishes they were less muscular or weaker. The majority would wish they are more muscular and stronger (basically, wishing they looked like @desertshores , damn!)
The key is that muscle is not built by itself just from protein consumption, no matter how much protein-fortified breakfast cereal you eat. You need the training stimulus too. With that stimulus comes a whole host of nutrient partitioning - muscles will take up more amino acids and carbohydrates, even independently of insulin. Muscle protein synthesis starts very quickly (< 3h) after a workout, remains high at 24h, and stays elevated for ~48h in most people. Muscle tissue is also more sensitive to amino acid intake for up to 48h after a workout. So if you workout 3-4x per week, your muscles are almost always in a primed state.
I do also believe in taking breaks, so I run both a deload week in my hypertrophy and strength programs, which gives a nice chance to fully recover. And I couple that with lower calories and lower protein.
As much I respect them for their contributions and the scienctific rigor, I remain somewhat skeptical and unconvinced of Attia/Huberman camp vis a vis protein intake. They provide little to no evidence to support what amounts to excessive protein intake.
Here is an excerpt generated by Recall from podcast of Andrew Huberman with Chris Gardner, an authority on Nutrition Sciences from Stanford.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQZT2igXN4&t=5668s)
The recommendation for protein intake is one gram of quality protein per lean pound of body weight, with some arguing that this is a reasonable argument for high protein intake
The recommended daily allowance of protein is set at two standard deviations above the estimated average requirement, which was determined by nitrogen balance studies
The estimated average requirement for protein is 66 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, but the recommended daily allowance is higher to account for individual variations
Nitrogen balance studies were conducted on conscientious war objectors who were confined to a special facility and had their nitrogen intake and output measured
The studies found that the body adapts to low protein intake by becoming more efficient, and that the estimated average requirement for protein is lower than the recommended daily allowance [
The studies were conducted on men, and the results may not be applicable to women or individuals with different lifestyles or activity [
The average American intake of protein is around 1.2-2 grams per kilogram body weight per day, which is higher than the recommended daily allowance (RDA)
There is no storage depot for protein in the body, and excess protein is broken down into ammonia and carbon skeletons, which can be converted into carbs
Consuming high amounts of protein does not provide any benefit in terms of storing it for future use, as it is either utilized or eliminated by the body
Plants are often thought to be missing amino acids, but all plants have all 20 amino acids, including lysine, methionine, and cysteine, although the proportions may vary
The idea that plants are incomplete or missing amino acids is a myth, and complementing beans and grains is not necessary unless protein intake is very low
Legumes, such as beans, are a good source of quality protein for plant-eaters, with soybeans having a better amino acid profile than other beans [
Bioavailability refers to the body’s ability to use amino acids, with egg and beef being considered near-perfect proteins due to their high bioavailability
Plants have lower bioavailability due to fiber binding, but humans can still absorb 80-90% of protein from plant sources
A new definition of protein quality includes environmental impact and other nutrients, making plants and animals more comparable in terms of protein quality [
Eating quality food and being able to wait to eat or eat a slightly larger meal without negative effects on sleep or energy are markers of good health [
Limiting protein intake for a few days and then consuming more on other days can be a healthy approach to eating, and exploring plant-based options like beans and legumes is also beneficial
The twin study involved 22 pairs of identical twins, with each pair randomized to either a vegan or omnivorous diet, and the study aimed to measure various health markers
The study found that the vegan group lost more weight, lowered their LDL cholesterol, and lowered their fasting insulin compared to the omnivorous group [
Additionally, the vegan group had longer telomere caps and were biologically younger than their omnivorous twins, according to epigenetic clocks, after just eight weeks on the diet
Personally I find this quite unconvincing too. As I pointed out in the original post, working out is a KEY factor in your idea protein intake. The RDA is far too low if you hope to gain muscle mass.
And the fact there’s no storage depot is exactly why it needs to be consumed in higher amounts and more frequently. But again there’s an assumption here that people are exercising and thus the muscles will use the protein you consume. If taking Rapamycin and you’re not lifting weights, you’re missing a huge longevity boost right there.
Also, I think this (presumably AI generated) summary is wrong; it says 66g per kg of body weight, haha
As I stated before, some longevity doctors whom I have in high esteem, like Peter Attia, sometimes appear to be sort of drowning in a puddle.
How it is possible to propose those huge amounts of protein to ordinary people? I would never be able to eat those amounts myself, even by doing regular resistance exercise (at a moderate level).
My n=1 is that, even when doing more (relatively) strenuous workouts, large amounts of protein (animal protein with high DIAAS) made no difference.
Sorry but this sounds a bit like a strawman argument. They’re not proposing “huge” amount, and they’re not proposing it to ordinary people. They’re proposing to people interested in extending their health/lifespan, and those people are presumably exercising and making informed decisions about what they eat.
I also don’t think it’s a huge amount, or difficult to achieve. The common ‘reccommendation’ is 1.6 to 2.2g per kg. For a healthy weight male, that’s ballpark 154g per day. That’s not crazy or unachievable IMO. For overweight/obese people you scale by lean body mass, not total mass.
The guy who posted earlier had a stat saying the average American intake of protein is 1.2-2.0g per kg per day. So a lot of people (presumably not lifting weights, not working on their longevity) already eat more than enough protein. However, those average people probably could improve the quality (i.e. less chicken nuggets).
As for your personal anecdote, it’s well known that some people are better and worse responders to exercise in general. There’s a fantastic article here: Genetics and Strength Training: Just How Different Are We? • Stronger by Science If you have never found a difference in your training outcomes based on your protein intake, you’re likely a very good responder to exercise stimulus. For me, I’ve seen better muscle/strength gains by increasing protein. And that seems to be backed up by lots of scientific studies, showing gains all the way up to 2.6g/kg. (Protein Science Updated: Why It's Time to Move Beyond the “1.6-2.2g/kg” Rule • Stronger by Science)
However, these are, of course, just general recommendations and every person should figure out what works (or doesn’t work) for them.
It’s not really possible if you center around whole plant foods like legumes, nuts and seeds, fruits, whole grains and you have a calorie deficit, as they all have plenty of carbohydrates and the nuts and seeds includes fat as well.
It requires more of a traditional bodybuilding diet, but it’s longevity we’re discussing here.
If you want to maximize muscle hypertrophy at some theoretical expense of longevity then do strength training 1 hour 6 times a week while eating 2.2 g/kg protein. Attia takes rapamycin, which theoretically should negate some of the theoretical side effects from ramping up mTOR or growth.
But most other people don’t take mTOR inhibitors.
But there are plenty of healthy protein sources like fish, chicken, turkey, milk, eggs etc. A diet based only around the things you mentioned is extremely restrictive and severely limits what you can eat. So of course that makes it very difficult to achieve sufficient protein intake.
Muscle mass is seemingly extremely beneficial as we age (frailty, injury, metabolism etc). I also don’t believe it’s established whether the higher calorie/protein intake produces worse longevity in humans, nor do I believe we have good data showing that CR is beneficial in people. (Obviously I am assuming that being in caloric balance is best. We don’t want to be overweight either).
I also don’t think anybody is saying we should all be bodybuilders either. But gaining some muscle mass seems like very good insurance for preventing physical decline.
The protein intake will be sufficient, but it’s going to be at best 1.0-1.6 g/kg but never 2.2 g/kg depending on how much carbohydrate/fat free protein you eat (i.e whole animal protein) and how centered on e.g legumes you are and your calorie intake.
As far as nutrition for longevity goes, Walter Willett recommends modest amounts of poultry, a couple servings of fish a week and one serving of diary a day. Not plenty of some of these sources – at least for longevity, I’m not sure if it’s because they are worse at some point or because they crowd out the other foods with more favorable nutrients up to a point.
I started listening to Attia’s most recent podcast yesterday and one of the guest, Gabrielle Lyons, IMO, was giving horrible protein advice and she lost all credibility with me. My thought is I should never know more!
She said everyone, including small women, should get a minimum of 115 grams of protein per day, and it should be animal based in order to get the right amino acid profile.
She goes against all of the nutrition scientists I follow. Stu Phillips says 1.2 grams per kg is all most people need, up to 1.6. You can go higher and get minuscule gains, but unless you are a body builder, you won’t really notice.
So, she got the 115 for a 100 pound woman wrong… and then the entire point of getting high enough protein numbers, like the 1.6 grams, is that once you consume enough protein, the source doesn’t matter because you’ve hit your amino acids at that point. So for her to tell a 100 pound woman she needs animal based proteins at that level of intake to make sure they hit their aminos, and for her to go unchecked by Attia, just shows once again that it’s hard to trust anyone out there.
I imagine IRL if she has a 100 pound woman in front of her, she might not actually give the 115 min, but on a podcast giving general advice to the masses, she said everyone…
Also, @mccoy, it would be interesting to know the results if you tracked a day of food on the free site, cronometer.com. I only say this because I am always blown away at how much protein I’m getting even when I think I’ve had a very low protein day (and I’m vegan). My results are a great example of what Christopher Gardner says… we all think we are having less than we are.
@A_User everything you said. I think the case for over 1.6-1.8 grams is valid for people who are overweight and if that protein replaces french fries… for some it’s a way to get them to replace crap… but not helpful if you are replacing healthy fiber and everything else plants have to offer in order to eat even more protein.
I agree, I didn’t express myself correctly. I meant people with a ordinary appetite. But my perception of ordinary may be wrong, since I tend to satiate early, eating lots of vegetables and nuts. The amounts are not huge but are at least twice the RDA. I had Grok make a search (this AI is strong with web-searching) and actually the values he recommends in writing are in the order of 1.6-2.2 g/kg/d.
Peter Attia recommends a daily protein intake of around 1.6 g/kg of body weight and up to 2.2 g/kg (approximately 0.8–1.0 g/lb) for optimal health, particularly to support muscle protein synthesis and meet the needs of older adults, active individuals, and others with higher requirements. In his practice, he often aims for the upper half of this range, such as about 2 g/kg (or roughly 1 g/lb).
In some podcasts though, he seems to get overboard with it, insisting on the upper bound of the above range, which is almost 3 times the RDA. And how are elder, untrained people supposed to train so strenuosly to justify such quantities?
And that’s confirmed, but there is a seminal paper in exercise science, where the conclusion is that in athletes engaged in weightlifting, beyond 1.6 g/kg/d doesn’t move the needle. But I’ll have to find that.
That might be the truth in my case, I’ve been a very easy gainer in my youth.
I was just listening to it half an hour ago. Was it 100 g of protein for a 115 pounds woman? It’s a lot anyway. Dr. Lyon is a pupil of Dr. Lyman, who follows the muscle-centric philosophy adopted by her and Petr Attia, who ten years ago followed a more moderate approach, suggesting an as low as possible amount of protein without losing muscle mass.
That was my very first thought after starting to track cronometer.
Before she talked about the minimum, she mentioned we should get 250 grams per day! And then she said the minimum she would recommend for ANYONE is 100… and then brought up a 115 pound woman, so yes, she said it.
She didn’t say we should get 250 g per day. What she said was that “we need 250 g a day. We recycle much of that, we don’t eat that”
OOOOH, I was wondering if she just misspoke and they failed to edit because that obviously sounded crazy to me! Whew.
And interesting because I think I’ve heard we can’t store protein, so I wonder how we are using 250 if we are not consuming it daily. Doesn’t matter, but now I’m wondering.
The daily protein turnover for an adult human is typically estimated at around 300 to 400 grams per day, reflecting the total amount of body protein that is synthesized and degraded each day. This turnover is significantly higher than the amount of protein consumed in the diet.
She said that the largest portion of that, around 75% goes towards visceral tissue, for turnover and maintenance (rebuilding and repairing). And about 25% of that goes to muscle.
When you look at the Blue Zones, their dietary protein consmption is far less than 2gm of protein/kg/day. Thats the evidence we have.
I follow and thank him for his many contributions but Peter Attia hasn’t provided much evidence why he supports 2gm/kg/d.