Anyone taking Nattokinase? Why not?

#1

I have heard a great deal from participants on this forum about the dangers of high LDL with regards to CVD and specifically atherosclerosis. Many on this forum appear to be pursuing a plant based diet (or at least an “animal meat light” diet) and many are proactively taking statins. I either started my longevity journey slower than most of you here on this forum or I’m just substantially slower, but it seems that directly targeting CV health and specifically plague formation would be a positive. That’s why I was surprised when I searched for Nattokinase in the forums and only came up with one reference to someone who is taking it (sorry for calling you out, @Dexter_Scott , but much appreciate you sharing). I’m asking this because this seems like a good addition to my “stack”.

In the below review from 2017 (written by a Chinese emergency room doctor and a natural medicine doctor from the US), they say “ Nattokinase (NK), a potent blood-clot dissolving protein used for the treatment of cardiovascular diseases, is produced by the bacterium Bacillus subtilis during the fermentation of soybeans to produce Natto. NK has been extensively studied in Japan, Korea, and China. Recently, the fibrinolytic (anti-clotting) capacity of NK has been recognized by Western medicine. The National Science Foundation in the United States has investigated and evaluated the safety of NK. NK is currently undergoing a clinical trial study (Phase II) in the USA for atherothrombotic prevention.”

(Since I haven’t heard about the results of the clinical trial perhaps it was a dud?)

Also below is a link to Amazon which suggests it is very cheap to buy (although they appear to have intentionally removed K2 so not sure what that is about).

It supposedly lowers blood pressure and a few other benefits which would be positives to longevity.

My question is: since it seems people here are concerned about longterm CVD risk enough to alter diet and take statins, Nattokinase seems to directly target CV health and plague formation, and it’s cheap, why doesn’t Nattokinase warrant even more robust discussion here? Or is this again a case of me simply being very late to a discussion which was already completed?

https://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Nattokinase-Cardiovascular-Circulatory/dp/B000BD0RRM

I’m not here to passively argue that LDL isn’t a danger to CVD, particularly over the longer scales of longevity: I’m on-board with this and looking for a way to lower my LDL. For me, my LDL has been “high” (roughly 172) for at least five years, although I had other things to worry about (cancer) so no one did anything or even flagged it before now. I’ve tried a number of diets and for me personally (due to weak will or bad breeding) I don’t feel well as a vegetarian or vegan, nor lower-protein diets (yes, even the Mediterranean diet), and the thing that seems to work best for me seems to be low carb with higher animal protein — I feel so much better on this diet (but that’s just me and I’m not selling or preaching anything). Even with 2.5 years of this diet my LDL is the same (still “high”) although all my other metabolic numbers are now excellent (TG, A1c, etc) and now my doctor says my LDL is too high. Also, with my recent (now six month) quest of trying to build real muscle (definitely working) i even tried the “carnivore diet” (cue exasperated groans) which was fine for me but didn’t appear to do anything additional (one minor thing) and didn’t raise LDL either. I’m on citrus bergamot as of March and about to test to see if it actually lowered my LDL, Ideally I’m targeting 130 LDL for a shorter-term goal, and then I’ll see where I am.

I’d prefer not to take a statin but many be I’m being idiotic as I am considering taking Nattokinase instead (which is less studied and not much cheaper).

I’d love to hear why Nattokinase hasn’t ranked high enough to make many peoples’ stacks, or at least a mention of it. Thanks.

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Endurance exercise and cardiac risk
#2

I am on a very high meats saturated fats… diet. Eat a pound definitely after the gym with whole milk every other day religiously. My diet for the past 8 years… age 65.

My Coronary Calcium scan score zero June 2022. My LDL-C genetically high 170-ish.

Told diet or exercise… possibly even statins won’t change this… might try Nattokinase. Will check heart again in 2024. Thanks.

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#3

I apologize: it looks like @Joseph may have started Nattokinase in March 2023:

Did you end up taking Nattokinase, @Joseph? Any thoughts on this?

Thank you.

#4

I make a “cocoa” with a blend of cocoa and various powders such as ginseng, ashwaganda, vidanga etc (basically, various “good for what ails ya” herbs), and include nattokinase in this blend. Don’t know if the hot water damages it or not.

I honestly can’t say it has done anything at all - but tbh that’s VERY normal for me; most substances (with very few exceptions) do absolutely nothing and I take them more on principle than on results.

Btw I’ve read on a Twitter thread that the recommended doses are too low. As a result I add a bit extra to my brew.

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#5

I’ve been taking serrapeptase for years and it has been effective in bringing my fibrinogen level into normal range. I take it in lieu of nattokinase, which has some similar effects but wasnt doing the job for me.

I believe there is synergy in consuming both together and getting the benefits of both, so I just ordered some nattokinase (Horbaach brand) and will begin taking a reduced dose of each when I wake up at night.

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#6

Which brand of serrapeptase do you take? @CTStan

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#7

I’ve always taken the NutraMedix brand of serrapeptase…

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CAC of 323. What can my 77 yo father do about this?
#8

Thank you for that, @CTStan . I’ve seen than some people use serrapeptase and Nattokinase together.

One of the benefits Nattokinase supposedly has is to lower LDL (an easily measurable outcome, and if particular interest to me). But you are using serrapeptase instead. Any indications your LDL declined while using it? Other easy metrics include reduced blood pressure? (From my very cursory search, I’m not sure serrapeptase is indicated for either of these values, and seems to be best studied for inflammation.)

(I’m again breaking my rule on trusting Chinese research, but some of this is just a review, and the below is research actually done in China with 10,000 FU of Nattokinase administered daily over a year)

Effective management of atherosclerosis progress and hyperlipidemia with nattokinase: A clinical study with 1,062 participants - PMC)%20(10%E2%80%9316).

Using NK or natto extract containing NK, animal studies from various laboratories confirmed that NK has a hypolipidemic effect and significantly reduces elevated serum triglycerides (TG), total cholesterol (TC) and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (LDL-C) (10–16). Our studies found that in patients with hyperlipidaemia, NK treatment (26 weeks at 6,000 FU) reduced TC, LDL-C and TG, and increased the level of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) (5).

However, data from human studies have not been consistent or conclusive. For example, in a small pilot study, Wu and colleagues observed a decrease in serum cholesterol, LDL-C and HDL-C in the NK treatment group following 8 weeks of treatment at a dose of 4,000 FU, although the difference was not statistically significant (17). In a recent report aimed at determining the effect of NK on the progression of subclinical atherosclerosis, it was concluded that NK supplementation at the dose of 2,000 FU does not have an effect on the progression of subclinical atherosclerosis in healthy individuals at low CVD risk (18). In contrast, in studies using higher doses of 6,000 FU (5) and 7,000 FU (19), NK was effective in lowering the level of total cholesterol, triglycerides and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in hyperlipidemic patients, and was also effective in reducing the thickness of the median of the common carotid artery (CCA-IMT) and the size of the carotid plaque.

Effects of NK use on the lipid profile

The changes in the blood lipid profile of the participants before and after treatment are shown in Table 2. After 12 months of daily NK consumption at a dose of 10,800 FU, a significant reduction in TG, TC, and LDL-C (P < 0.01) was evident compared to the values before treatment. Furthermore, NK also had the effect of increasing HDL-C (15.8% increase, P < 0.01). The levels of TC, TG, LDL-C, and HDL-C improved in 95.4, 85.2, 84.3, and 89.1% of the participants, respectively, after 12 months of NK use (Table 3). NK administration for 12 months led to a decrease of 15.9, 15.3, and 18.1% in TC, TG, and LDL-C, respectively. Taking all of the data into account, NK produced a significant and favorable effect on the lipid profile in hyperlipidemic participants.

NK suppresses atherosclerosis

After 12 months of NK consumption, both the size of CCA-IMT and the size of the carotid artery plaque decreased significantly (from 1.33 to 1.04mm on average, P < 0.001). The size of the plaque decreased by up to 36%, suggesting that NK is very effective in improving/reducing carotid atherosclerosis (Table 4). The overall improvement rates in CCA-IMT and CPS are not as high as those in blood lipids, with approximately 2/3 and 77.7% of the participants showing improvement in CPS and CCA-IMT, respectively (Table 3).

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#9

Given @CTStan uses Serrapeptase and not Nattokinase, I thought I’d paste in what little I found on why this makes sense for arterial plaque removal (NOT a research paper, but a doctor from Germany).

Silk Worm Enzymes For Carotid Artery Blockage

Dr. H A Nieper – Germany

Serrapeptase is an enzyme produced by serratia bacteria living on silkworms. With this enzyme the worms melt a hole out of the cocoon. Unlike other enzymes in the field of biology, Serrapeptase dissolves ‘dead’ tissue like or e.g. not both silk and apparently also fibrinoid layers in the arteries which chemically could be compared to silk.

A special problem in today’s civilized society is occluding processes in the carotid arteries of the neck. Very often we see patients where surgeons were reluctant to operate or to apply drill or laser technology such occluded carotids. The reason for this is the potential risk that off coming debris will be pushed into the smaller cerebral vessels.

We have, therefore started to apply Serrapeptase in cases of severe narrowings of the carotid arteries. Mostly in patients showing severe symptoms due to the narrowing, including amaurosis fugax (intermittent blindness). The therapeutic results are excellent, certainly lifesaving. It is, however, mandatory that the therapy be conducted for a very long time. Even after month 18, after the onset of the therapy, the patients are improving.

I have also found Serrapeptase to be an extraordinary substance for safety removing fibrous blockages from coronary arteries, particularly the carotid arteries found in the neck, which supply blood brain. Serrapeptase is a natural enzyme produced by serratia bacteria living in silkworms. Once the silkworm has completed its transformation into a moth, it uses this substance to “melt” a hole in its cocoon, so that it can escape.

The astonishing fact is that, unlike other biological enzymes, Serrapeptase affects only non-living tissue, like the silk cocoon. This is the reason the butterfly is not harmed. For our health purposes, Serrapeptase dissolves only dead tissues such as the old fibrous layers that clog the lining of our arteries and dangerously restrict the flow of blood and oxygen to the brain. Because of this, Serrapeptase is extremely useful in keeping arterial deposits from building up again after angioplasty (a balloon technique used to clear an artery blockage) or coronary bypass surgery has been performed.

Very often, surgeons are reluctant or unable to open partially closed carotid arteries using laser surgery. They fear that resulting debris could be pushed into smaller connecting arteries and result in a stroke and possibly death. In cases of severe arterial narrowing, I have used Serrapeptase with excellent, even life-saving results. Many of my patients have shown significant improved blood flow through their previously constricted arteries, as confirmed by ultrasound examination. Unfortunately, orthodox cardiologists do not employ this important method in their practices.

Dr H. A. Nieper
Head, Dept of Medicine
Paracelcus Klink am Silbersee Oertzeweg 24
38051 Langenhagen, Germany
0511-7782-54
Fax: 0511 7782 54

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#10

Thank you, @lukegadget . From what little I read in the literature, the “recommended” doses are 2000 FU (200mg?) and this was enough to show some positive impact on a population with existing plaque but not statistically significant. A Chinese study showed positive impact but used 10,000 FU daily for 12 months.

Since adding Nattokinase to your “tea” several years ago have you seen lowered LDL and/or TG? Or lower blood pressure? (Understanding it’s not the sole component you changed, and you’ve likely done a number of experiments since starting).

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#11

My serrapeptase was prescribed primarily to reduce fibrinogen, an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

Yes, my lipids have greatly improved, but since I also have been taking statins and metformin the entire time, there’s just no way to attribute the relative contributions of each toward the broader benefits.

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#12

I make and eat natto. I haven’t had mine tested, and I don’t eat it every day. In fact, I haven’t had any in a bit, that might be why my triglycerides are up? I can only track so many things; I’m really into making yogurt right now, so natto has fallen off.

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#13

It’s been about three months, but my latest blood test show no impact at ALL (it’s high, and my Dr will suggests statins which I do NOT want)

But I seem to be something of a freak this way - it’s extremely rare for me to have any side effects or results at all from anything I’ve taken, even at high doses.

The one exception for LDL was taking Thyroid T3 some years ago. I felt no effects even at rather high doses, but when tested my cholesterol was BELOW reference. By quite a bit actually. Because of that experience I’m looking into sources to get T3 again, and take a more moderate dose.

This makes sense: T3 is used to convert cholesterol into virtually ALL of the body’s important hormones. Instead of impacting supply (statins), T3 increases demand. Note that the standard measure of thyroid function, TSH, is actually pretty meaningless. It’s not even a thyroid hormone (it comes from the pituitary) and doesn’t provide info about how well the thyroid is responding. If TSH is high it could mean that overall thyroid function is LOW, and extra TSH is “trying” to boost it. Note that when I was taking T3, my TSH levels were almost zero - because my pituitary could sense I didn’t need more.

I’m going on about this, because I think thyroid is something of a blind spot in standard medical practice. It’s like a check box in a brochure, and doctors aren’t educated to look past just TSH.

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#14

Does Nattokinase have an advantage over statins?

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#15

Hi Eric,

I have taken Serrapeptase and also Nattokinase in the past year. My LPa was high when measured last year but haven’t had it tested again. I will let you know when I do.

I wasn’t even taking these two for cholesterol, so your post is interesting. I am taking annatto vitamin E in the hope that might help. I took a bottle of Serrapeptase to try and get rid of the mucous which forms in my throat when I get social anxiety. I didn’t do much so I didn’t get a second bottle. Reading what you shared I might start taking it again. I have a genetic marker for thrombosis.

I too prefer a low carb diet with (slow cooked) meat and vegetable - also tons of salad - and like you have zero calcium in my arteries. I do have a small amount of plaque and a bicuspid heart valve. Like you I am also disinclined to take statins. I read somewhere in the carnivore research by Dr. Paul Mason from Australia, that LDL going up when your triglycerides are normal is okay and even a good sign that happens when you get on the right track. I would have to search through his Youtube movies to find it again but he was pretty convincing and helped me stop worrying.

One of the reasons I started taking Nattokinase was the Japan study which found that it dissolves the spike protein in Covid. I was also taking it because I incorrectly thought that it had vitamin K2 in it. I was very annoyed when I found out they removed it. Crazy! I now have to take both. I would love to know how to make it popopop I have made tempeh and lots of other cultured food in the past. I am not too excited about buying natto in the little styrofoam containers you get it in the Asian shops here. Spiral foods has natto that is an amazing condiment - but last I checked I could only get it from the wholesalers in 10 kg lots. I might look into that again and find some friends who will take some.

I didn’t know bergamot was used for cholesterol. I used to take it for it’s anti ageing benefits. I will have to look into that again.

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#16

That’s a great question, @KarlT — really the prime question here. Id love an answer.

As far as my reading has shown, there don’t seem to be side effects in the same way that statins have, but none have been forced to report them. There was a safety study done at high does for I think one month, but not sure. The Chinese study was a “higher” doses daily (12,000 FU vs 2,000 normally recommended) and showed no side effects, but consider the source….

There are well studied side effects with statins albeit not common.

I might have a bad attitude about these things, but I always assume that anthropogenic created small molecule pharmacology perhaps more often have more potential side effects as they aren’t as often “naturally occurring” molecules. This means that peptides and other functional proteins may be more easily handled by our physiology.

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#17

Thank you, @karismac — that’s helpful.

Regarding citrus bergamot, I was actually prescribed it by my doctor to lower my LDL (not my research). I needed substantial time to convince her that the low-carb diet was worth trying, and she now admits it was successful with me. She is “less than enthused” with the carnivore diet and decided even though my labs were terrific (aside from my LDlL at 172 in January) I need to bring my LDL down. Hence the citrus bergamot.

Like you I’ve listened to all the “keto/carnivore” doctors on how LDL doesn’t matter, and it might not…on a ten year time frame. But if I’m looking at 50 years, LDL is a real risk factor. Im convinced that — simplistically — oxidized LDLs contribute to plaques, so having lower LDL is probably a benefit (as is preventing oxidation, and inflammation). My LDL is the same with low carb, as with my SAD diet, so I don’t think it’s the cause, nor is it rising as all to become my energy source. So I’m going to try to lower it in as unobtrusively and healthy a way as possible.

I’m also considering the possibility that I will NOT be able to meaningfully lower LDL. So perhaps I can “pulse” a strong anti LDL/anti-plaque intervention every (say) five years: PCSK9 to lower LDL to 30 for a period, maybe massive Nattokinase or segupepsidase or whatever but short term to clean out my arteries.

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#18

I am hoping the annatto vitamin E has helped but just need to get the money together for more tests :slight_smile:

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#19

However, based on the Chinese study we may need 10,000 FU of Nattokinase, so the $12 bottle I see on Amazon with 90 capsules of 2,000 FU each would last 18 days (or $0.66 per day). This compares to some of the now off-patent statins that I probably can get for $3 per month ($0.10 per day)?…it’s only $300 difference per year but there has to be a benefit.

Maybe the Nattokinase removes plaque and lowers LDL while the statin just lowers TC? — this is worth an extra $300 per year.

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#20

I started using Neprinol—a compound that is mostly nattokinase—about 15-16 years ago after a very scary carotid scan. After 3 months it was significantly better (no longer in the “you could drop dead any minute zone”). Since then I take it for the entire month of November every year. Heart scan is clean (total Ca score was 11). Carotid also clean as a whistle. Btw I have horrible lipids (total chol 250, tg around 330. I react very well to rosuvastatin 5 mg (chol 110, tg 90). And I may use it intermittently just to cover my ass.

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Cyclodextrins, Cavadex and Cyclarity for Reversing Atherosclerosis