I know someone who is working to separate the diasteromers of MDMA (one of them is far less neurotoxic).
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Does anyone know if 17-alpha-estradiol is enough to maintain bone density? (esp in those who want to reduce their testosterone? [yes i know T is necessary for the MOA of 17AE]
Keep us posted on how it goes
I wanted to share some interesting bloodwork that came back after a few months of using topical Alfatradiol from Ell-Cranell (hair formula) mixed with ethoxydiglycol (transcutol).
I had no idea whether it was absorbing systemically, but my last blood test freaked out my doctor because my estradiol was elevated at 175 pmol/L (ref <162 for males) and my IGF-1 was 225 (ref 65-200 mcgl/L). I told him about the topical Alfatradiol and he said that the blood test here probably doesn’t distinguish between 17-alpha estradiol and 17-beta estradiol (estrogen). He wasn’t happy with my high IGF-1, but found this paper showing 17-a E upregulates IGF1 production.
Together, this provides some compelling evidence (for me, anyway) that the 17-a E is in fact absorbing topically.
Whether I should worry about the elevated IGF1, I’m less sure. Doc suggested that I go off the hair tonic for a month before the next blood test, just to be sure that’s what’s causing this.
Have you experienced any changes with weight or muscle mass? I’ve had my IGF up at those levels and I was a larger human
I don’t think so. I periodize my training and spent Sept through Dec focusing on strength, so I did gain some muscle, but I think it was more deadlifts than 17aE. If you look at the paper I attached, it states, “We demonstrate that 17α-E2 increases hepatic insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1) production in male mice without inducing any changes in pulsatile growth hormone (GH) secretion.”
Without the GH, this is not a normal, bodybuilder-style IGF1 increase. Which is why I’m unsure how negative it is. I have a smart doctor, but he’s also unsure.
The increase in IGF-1 levels is very interesting. I wonder if they saw that at all in the mouse studies with 17-AE? Its either too low to be significant, or the benefits of 17AE were significantly higher than the negatives of increased IGF1. Definitely something we will want to track over time.
The new longevity drug coming out from Loyal is, as you may know, targeted at reducing IGF1 to increase lifespan, see this link for details: The Longevity Summit, News & Update - #9 by RapAdmin
And of course Laron syndrome suggests that higher igf1 isnt helpful for healthy longevity
Curious - did you use about 3-4 drops of 50% ethanol with a moist tongue and oral mucosa (high concentration can dry your mouth quickly or make a dry mouth burn) or a lot more than I’m thinking?
I’ll also note that the effects of sublingual are pretty quick and the amounts used are low - I suspect a quick effect within a minute or less, perhaps there are some pharmacokinetics studies on sublingual 17bE2.
Good question to pose to Rich Miller
3mg 17-alpha estradiol in 15ml ethanol 50% under tongue, extremely irritating, so I don’t use ethanol now, I used EVOO instead.
I have a question, if I put EVOO underneath tongue for 20 mins, is that dangerous? will the oil molecule be directly transferred to circulating system, which cause embolism?
Ah makes sense with 15 mL…very generally speaking, the “research chemical” crowd that can involve a few clandestine chemists taking certain very much illegal substances that are generally harmful at the doses taken do 5-10 drops around 20-50% ethanol depending on solubility and my observations are it appears to work for them very much anecdotally as a very low cost option to preserve whatever expensive chemicals they are using and bypass first-pass liver metabolism. One generally calculates these parameters carefully in that context.
As for EVOO, all I can say is as general information - such a fat embolism deal generally is trauma related to where one actually has laceration and oil-based sublingual mixes are also fairly common.
I’d imagine that if we were designing an experiment in a human trial - just a sublingual solid tablet of 17aE2 could work in theory as well - but do not rely.
Dr Stanfield is my go to on longevity supplements. On any study he will check the data against the conclusion and at times find that the data does not support the conclusion. And it is the conclusion that makes it into the media supported or not by the data.
I have a friend who’s making it in capsule dose now (has access to private labs) - what dose would you want it to be in?
Would a pharmacy be able to buy 17a…? How about an MD? DVM?
Asking for a frustrated friend. Any ideas appreciated.
I’m guessing dosing would be microscopic. Anyone have guidance on this by body weight and frequency?
50mcg. Does your friend have any dosage/frequency guidance? 100 caps?
I don’t think so. Its just a chemical right now (in the US) - it hasn’t gone through any FDA approval process yet, so isn’t part of the medical / pharma supply chain.
In Europe I think its only available / approved as a hair growth / topical formulation. So that doesn’t help us much.
I am not at all familiar with these hormone issues but wouldn’t any possible feminization of a male likely be both pretty obvious and also reversable upon cessation of 17ae?
I suspect it would be mostly if not fully reversible in the short term and if one takes it long enough, some gynecomastia and reduced fertility is probably irreversible. Assumption is that male-to-female transgender case reports translate.
So, earlier in this thread its been discussed that you want to be careful, if buying 17-alpha estradiol from a lab supply company, regarding the potential for there to be a certain percentage of 17-beta estradiol mixed into the drug because they are likely manufactured together. Given the feminizing impact of the 17-beta estradiol is over 100X more powerful than that of the 17-alpha estradiol, there is obviously a certain risk if the percentage of the “beta” compound is more than a small portion of the total. For this reason we were talking about testing the samples for percentages of alpha and beta estradiol in what is ostensibly marketed as “17 alpha estradiol”.
Hypothetically, it seems that one could take a similar approach with 17AE that people are doing with rapamycin; that is, using the blood sirolimus level tests to confirm at a general level that the the drug they are getting is in fact rapamycin, and the levels are getting high enough in their system.
With 17AE, what might be some blood test markers that a person might want to track (say with monthly testing) to see if the percent of amount of the “beta” estradiol may be higher than desirable? Would a higher 17 beta estradiol impact testosterone levels? Is there another, better indicator of “feminization” going on that would be something that people may want to track over time?
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Bummer. 
I give up.