@Dr.Bart He was good. My take on the non creatine monohydrate products is they are worth trying if you get stomach upset or bloating from creatine mono. Plenty of people do. In addition, based on a study I read during my interview prep that creatine mono can be broken down into creatinine if it gets too acidic (citric acid) or too hot (boiling water). Still, every credible muscle scientist says creatine mono is the best so I still use it buying from good brands. I recently bought some on sale from iHerb (their white label) and it gave me a stomach ache every time I used it. (iHerb refunded my money). I also use the hottest water I can chug for solubility, and I take with food. Even Rhonda’s guy said with food was a good idea. I don’t think we can conclude CON-CRET (they also make mono) is lying but I’m not paying extra to get the HCL variety. I’m taking 10 grams a day in 4 doses. It’s a big help now that caffeine is out of my diet.
I just wonder if I was under-dosing with Kre-Alk with 4.5 mg thinking it was closer to 15 mg.
Creatine does break down into creatinine more quickly when exposed to heat, especially in boiling water[3]. If you dissolve creatine in warm or hot water, it should be consumed soon after mixing or stored cold to minimize this degradation. Boiling water with creatine already in it is not recommended, as significant breakdown into creatinine can occur if heated for an extended period (such as an hour)[1]. Mixing creatine into hot drinks like coffee or tea is generally fine if consumed promptly, but avoid boiling creatine in water[1][3].
Citations:
[1] Mixing creatine in hot water? Okay or no? : r/bodybuilding - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/bodybuilding/comments/2vk2vz/mixing_creatine_in_hot_water_okay_or_no/
[2] Can I take creatine in hot water? #shorts | Myprotein - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QANklXs39Os
[3] Water, milk, orange juice, coffee… What to take creatine with? Water, milk, orange juice, coffee... What to take creatine with?
[4] How should I take creatine? - Creapure How should I take creatine?
[5] Bioavailability, Efficacy, Safety, and Regulatory Status of Creatine … Bioavailability, Efficacy, Safety, and Regulatory Status of Creatine and Related Compounds: A Critical Review - PMC
[6] Common questions and misconceptions about creatine … Common questions and misconceptions about creatine supplementation: what does the scientific evidence really show? - PMC
[7] Is Creatine Safe? And More Side Effect FAQs - Healthline FAQs About Creatine Side Effects
Mixing creatine with citric acid (such as in citrus juice) does not rapidly break down creatine into creatinine. Research and supplement industry experience show that creatine is stable in mildly acidic solutions like those containing citric acid for several hours-well beyond the time it would typically be consumed[6]. The myth that citric acid immediately degrades creatine is not supported by evidence; in fact, the acidity of your stomach is much stronger than that of citric acid, and creatine survives this environment[5][6].
Additionally, studies have shown that creatine and citric acid can form stable compounds and cocrystals, which are used in supplement formulations without significant creatinine formation[10][11]. In manufacturing processes, creatine-citric acid mixtures maintained creatinine levels below detectable limits[10].
In summary: mixing creatine with citric acid is safe, and it does not cause rapid or significant breakdown into creatinine under normal usage conditions[5][6][10].
Citations:
[1] Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a … Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a cocrystal? - PubMed
[2] Creatine Citric Acid Cocrystals or Creatine Citrate Salts, That Is the … 2023 AIChE Annual Meeting
[3] Citric Acid & Creatine : r/Fitness - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/116fc1/citric_acid_creatine/
[4] Mechanosynthesis of a Co-Amorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://aim.autm.net/public/project/71327/
[5] Can creatine and citrus be combined? nutrition - Can creatine and citrus be combined? - Physical Fitness Stack Exchange
[6] Will mixing creatine with lemon juice reduce uptake? - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/StrongerByScience/comments/11yreif/supplement_question_will_mixing_creatine_with/
[7] [PDF] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://chemrxiv.org/engage/api-gateway/chemrxiv/assets/orp/resource/item/60c75048bb8c1a85623dbab7/original/mechanosynthesis-of-a-coamorphous-formulation-of-creatine-with-citric-acid-and-humidity-mediated-transformation-into-a-cocrystal.pdf
[8] Revisiting the solid-state landscape of creatine citric acid: A salt or a … https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022354925000395
[9] [PDF] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://s3.smu.edu/dedman/catco/publications/pdf/440.pdf
[10] US20040077719A1 - Creatine/citric acid compound, method for the … US20040077719A1 - Creatine/citric acid compound, method for the production of the same and the use thereof - Google Patents
[11] Mechanosynthesis of a Coamorphous Formulation of Creatine with … https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.cgd.0c01560
Let me try to be clear.
First, I repeat, I don’t know how creatine can help your sleep. I saw it may help some women’s cognition and depression, not men. From the findings so far (still awaiting studies), my take is that women’s creatine intake is suboptimal and/or its turnover may be faster than in men but evidence is limited.
2- I used the Ginkgo example as a “transporter helper” but maybe not for creatine itself. You can take this example and investigate with another molecule for yourself, your condition, during the present moment of your life. The BBB is very selective and each individual has its own permeability level (hence, maybe another confounding factor among the studies that test brain molecules).
3- Yes, sometimes I add a little dose of Ginkgo extract in my formula (brain). Dose has varied through the years, including big pauses.
4- Good quality Gingko is not cheap nowadays, at least down here. Traditionally, the tree was very popular so I suspect it was affordable for Traditional Chinese Medicine use.
5- Compared to the old days when it was often prescribed, the environment has changed drastically. Excess of toxins, e.g., can disrupt the BBB and gut. The same prescriptions that would work greatly in the past, maybe not so good for many people nowadays. Full of confounding factors. We need to adapt. Although, it seems it still can help patients with cognitive impairments. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JAD-140837
6- I notice some interesting features among the several studies on the extract for brain health. Leaving creatine (close but) behind (because I am biased against the idea of creatine to your brain! - unless you are into plant based diet…), this animal study showed a possibility of G. biloba to improve the passage of molecules through the BBB, in quantities necessary for neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s. According to Liang et al. (2020), GBE potentially activates gap junctions and improves the paracellular permeability of the BBB via adenosine receptor activation. This could promote the distribution of Ginseng’s active components in the brain tissue. Furthermore, previous studies have shown that the flavone in GBE may be a P-glycoprotein inhibitor, which may aid in increasing the concentration of co-administered medicines in the brain (Zhang et al. 2015a; Fan et al. 2009).
This discussion can be a long one… Have you heard of Shuxuening injection?
Shuxuening injection (SXNI) is derived from the leaf of Ginkgo biloba L. (Ginkgoaceae), and the effective components are flavonoids, bilobalide and ginkgolides (Wang et al. 2019). SXNI is widely used to treat ischaemic cardiovascular and cerebrovascular diseases, coronary heart disease, angina pectoris, cerebral embolism and cerebral vasospasm diseases clinically in China (Wang et al. 2019; Cao et al. 2020). Dilation of the blood vessels and function improvement of the microcirculation are the main efficacy of SXNI. Shuxuening injection, derived from Ginkgo biloba leaf, induced pseudo-allergic reactions through hyperactivation of mTOR - PMC
Many studies through this path.
PLEASE, I am not affirming anything. All I have written here all hypothesis, ok.
Microcirculation, we need to pay attention about it. Molecules that acts on your macro circulation are not difficult to find. The challenge (IMO) is microcirculation.
Hearing, which can go down with aging is associated to cognition and microcirculation. If you research, you will find studies using SXNI for sudden hearing loss. (I get very excited with this possibility! It’s tough to get old and not being able to enjoy music and to listen nature)
Oh, regards the injection (not extract) this study found the mechanism of the pseudo-allergic reactions some may feel.
As rapamycin is an mTOR inhibitor that can affect the mTOR-VEGF pathway:
Shuxuening injection, derived from Ginkgo biloba leaf, induced pseudo-allergic reactions through hyperactivation of mTOR
“Our work indicates that mTOR-VEGF pathway is hyperactivated in SXNI induced pseudo-allergic reactions, and rapamycin might be a potentially drug to prevent SXNI mediated pseudo-allergic reactions.”
It’s a super fun rabbit hole.
Can we extrapolate this rational to help creatine enter the brain? I haven’t seen studies about that yet…
Before anything, of course, I am presuming you have checked your hormone levels and are doing the basics (before diving into brain molecules). For me, a good old sauna is the best for my sleep.
Hello, Joseph.
This little study made me think about your strategy for taking creatine for sleep. If you are sleep deprived, perhaps future evidence will be on your side regarding creatine for sleep (for men)! Science needs patience but creatine being safe to use in moderation means a good risk-benefit. Let us know if it is helping your sleep, please: Frontiers | Hemispheric asymmetry in high-energy phosphate consumption during sleep-deprivation is balanced by creatine
Sleep is super important and can be a difficult process for many people. It’s being made into an influencer business opportunity. The following is not meant to be critical of those who have legit sleep issues and are seeking relief, I do get that but…
A lot of people do stress about their sleep and how “tired” they are. They wallow in it like it’s a badge of honour. A bit annoying to hear it all the time but SM has made this a popular past time.
My wife is a light sleeper and often up 3 or 4 times a night. A habit she developed with 4 little ones (45 years ago) and a husband who is a super sleeper LoL! I never hear the end of that. But she never says a peep about her “sleep”, just her annoying husband 
Amazingly her bio markers are all better than mine and she is on zero meds, superior health for a 67y/o who still out works her co-workers who are in their 20’s.
Our son, who has 5+ successful restaurants, had a policy, if you come in hung over and whine about it, if you are tired and whine about, if you don’t “feel well” and whine about it to your co-workers, you get 1 warning. The second time you get fired. Same for being late to work LoL!
Sounds harsh but when you are building positive high functioning teams in any business, listening to co-workers complain all day is a grind most people don’t have time for.
Steve,
I can report that a simple decision to not worry about being awake in the middle of the night (not just not complain about it) has seen an amazing improvement in my sleep. I just go to bed early enough that I can be up for an hour and still have enough sleep…so I don’t care if I’m up. I try not to be happy to be up so I only allow myself to read a (real) book until I feel sleepy. I don’t try to force myself asleep with drugs or force of will. I just wait for the sleepiness to come. It almost always comes. Once in a while it doesn’t so I get up but I’m fine because I’m no longer carrying a backlog of sleep deprivations.
@Raquel I take creatine several times during the day including with dinner. My sleep has improved significantly recently but I can’t say the creatine made the difference. I can say that extra creatine during the day after a poor night sleep is a huge help for mental function. Now that I don’t consume caffeine or any stimulants, poor sleep is very hard to tolerate except for creatine (extra over my everyday dose: 10g) and methylene blue (only take when I’m desperate; it’s a synthetic dye, for Gods sake)
That is awesome!
Sounds like you have broken the self fulfilling prophecy syndrome
It’s one of the reasons I don’t have any “tracker” app/device for health, other than a scale, a BP monitor and a HRV app. I can get a bit obsessive, when I think I need to “fix” something LoL!
That doesn’t mean I don’t do regular blood testing and other things that provide clinical information for my family Dr and I to review. And I do the TruDiagnostic testing for fun
The NYT delivers a typical “yes, but” analysis.
Does creatine boost athletic performance?
Most studies on creatine supplements, which typically contain a form of the compound called creatine monohydrate, have evaluated their effects on athletic performance and muscle growth, Dr. Antonio said.
For people who want to use creatine for improvements in these areas, experts typically recommend taking about three to five grams per day in the form of supplements.
Creatine has also been shown to help build muscle among people who do regular strength training. In a 2022 analysis and review of 35 clinical trials involving nearly 1,200 adults, researchers found that people who took creatine supplements while resistance training increased their lean body mass (or the weight of everything in their body except fat) by an average of more than two pounds. The trials involved different dosages of creatine over different lengths of time, from one week to four months.
But are these improvements large enough to be noticeable or meaningful to health or exercise performance? That’s the key question, Dr. Seres said.
A small increase in muscle mass may, however, be meaningful for people who have low muscle mass or low muscle strength, such as older adults or those with sarcopenia, a condition characterized by age-related loss of muscle mass and strength, Dr. Fielding said.
In a 2024 analysis of 16 clinical trials involving about 500 adults — some of whom were healthy and some of whom had conditions such as Parkinson’s disease or schizophrenia — researchers found that various doses of creatine supplements improved people’s memory and attention time, but not their overall brain function, including impulse control, planning and response time.
While more research is needed, Dr. Antonio said, if you want to try using creatine for cognitive benefits, the limited data we have suggests that at least 10 grams per day may be a good place to start.
New to the creatine discussion, so apologies if this has been mentioned already.
This convinced me that in the question of Creatine Monohydrate vs HCL, CM is the clear winner:
Oh noooooo! Great find!
Of course I gave away $100 worth of CM powder!
@sol, I do hate consuming the powder, so is your educated guess that I could still take the HCL to get similar results, but maybe I need 3 pills (750mg x3=2.5g) instead of the 1 pill they say is as effective? Stupid expensive at that point, but if it works, I’m willing to so I actually take it every day… thoughts?
No clue. If you read the article, you know all that I know, and probably more.
I’m getting my CM today, and I’ll get to find out if it tastes like cilantro to me or not. 
Being a researcher, I must say my mind is on a critical thinking mode too often… very tiring some days… I feel that there’s a “Creatinefication” for all things marketing, and in these moments placebo effect can become more significant. Chemistry is only part of the body (including brain / sleep) equation when you compute all the other forces like thoughts, trauma/fear, genetic, light, toxins load, etc. But you are aware and experiments can be fun. Forgive me for/if any demotivating words! Btw, you could also try to optimize your glycine/arginine/methionine intake (that seems to go down with ageing), or even mix creatine to guanidinoacetic acid (GAA), in this case, to facilitate the blood-brain barrier crossing: Creatine-Guanidinoacetic Acid Supplementation Improves Esports Performance in Young Men | Bentham Science Publishers
Relentless pursuit of truth!
Here is an article from a recent Medical Newsletter explaining why Creatine is vitally important for all of us: