Wise Athletes podcast episode— Part 1 & 2 on Near Infrared Light

#42

I should have added that in a long thread here about NIR exposure, the opinions differed a lot. I remember Candice strongly disagreed with my approach for example, and stated that only with much stronger NIR exposure you’d get ‘skin benefits’.
Personally I’ve been hesitant because of the multiple studies that indicate that excessive NIR (and FIR) exposure as said can result in skin damage - thermal stress may contribute to this according to some studies, and it was also suggested mitochondrial activity can become overstressed, leading to the overproduction of ROS and increased MMP expression, which may result in skin damage (such as collagen/elastin degradation). I remember seeing a study that suggested an 2°C increase in skin temperature was a threshold for inducing thermal stress and contributing to the production of ROS. But many studies on NIR and LLLT also use (very) different parameters, so it is really difficult to draw a conclusion.

In case of an injury personally I do use a very different approach, based on other research.

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#43

Haven’t listened to the podcast yet but I will. This is my panel. I’ve bought one for myself and two others to friends and family because the price is that good.

No affiliation obviously but can attest to a great experience even with post sales questions.

Using this for 20-30 min a day just feels great to me and due to the size I can do the whole body at once. My husband is very skeptical of “biohacking” if you will and yet he calls this thing life changing. He’s rather out of shape and gets strained muscles / tendons from exerting himself on weekends at a local basketball / soccer league. This panel always helps him bounce back on his feet way faster than letting healing take its natural course.

As for incandescent lights, I’ve preferred them forever and have them mounted in my condo in Europe. Unfortunately we’re only there a few weeks out of the year, max, and my husband insists that they’d cost us an arm and a leg in the states if we replaced every LED bulb in the house because we have a great many and electricity is expensive.

I don’t know what it is though but their light makes me feel instantly better. Neon lights make me sick. The bright led headlights of modern vehicles give me a horrible reaction at night—I think they must be contributing to untold casualties on the road. So anyway I might be uniquely photosensitive and some of these effects might be directly on brain centers through the visual input of the retina, because I didn’t need to know anything about the science to have these visceral reactions to different light wavelengths pretty much since I can remember.

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#44

I use a 180F sauna for 30 minutes 4 days a week. Am I damaging my skin? I haven’t heard of this risk.

#45

Plants need far red too for you can look for “far red grow lights”. That’s used a lot in greenhouses and hydroponics. I use them in my grow tent with the fruiting crop (tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, etc.).
Here is one on amazon

#46

Sorry Joseph, to be frank I wouldn’t know. Different studies use such different parameters, and some studies also used quite extreme treatment modalities with excessive NIR/FIR exposure, so I’ve found it very difficult to draw conclusions.
As mentioned some publications suggest that exposure to broader spectrums of NIR and especially to FIR, could potentially have unwanted effects on skin tissues as a result of among others thermal stress and ROS, but clearly this also depends on the specific wavelength range, intensity, and duration of exposure - and in quite some earlier studies laser was in fact used, with (very) high exposure. Then of course there are also so many publications discussing all the potential therapeutic benefits of NIR in the 700–1000 nm range (for wound healing, mitochondrial function, inflammation reduction, and in fact improving collagen synthesis etc).
Some of the publications I ran into, did make me personally decide to opt for moderate exposure for the time being, and to take a bit more cautious approach than I see many other people follow - but who knows I may in fact be missing out on benefits as a result, as Candice stated.

Here are a few publications - there is of course much more to read on this, also on FIR exposure, but frankly I don’t have immediate access to those publications anymore as I haven’t looked into this for a while - after I just decided to for the time being use NIR/FIR with moderation.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/phpp.12899

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5403670_Infrared_Radiation-Induced_Matrix_Metalloproteinase_in_Human_Skin_Implications_for_Protection]

[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221913224_Non-Thermal_Effects_of_Near-Infrared_Irradiation_on_Melanoma]

#47

I’m sorry, I am confused as to the point you are making.

The NIR source referenced in the second paper is outside of the range of the common NIR sources that are typically sold. Namely 660nm & 850nm which is the range of the Red Light Therapy devices sold.

NIR irradiation was performed with a broadband infrared source (Titan; Cutera, Brisbane, CA, USA). The NIR device emits an NIR spectrum between 1100 to 1800 nm, with water filtering to remove wavelengths between 1400 and 1500 nm (Figure. 1), and simulates solar NIR radiation that reaches the skin of humans on the Earth’s surface. This device delivers NIR without the wavelengths that are strongly absorbed by water and haemoglobin, which allow for the safe delivery of NIR energy deeper into tissue. The horizontal spot size of the irradiation was 10 × 30 mm. To avoid thermal effects, the sapphire contact cooling tip wa

The times typically used for red light photodynamic therapy using 660nm & 850nm, typically between 10 and 30 minutes depending on the power of the lamps and the distance from the subject.
This is repeated several times per week.
Are you in agreement or disagreement with this?

#48

Thanks. This option is cheaper than the red/NIR panels using similar technology.

#49

I feel exactly the same. I’m apparently pretty sensitive to light.

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#50

Also blue or white lights at night literally cause me pain. I used to live in Manhattan and the billboards would cause me a sharp ocular pain as I’d walk by. Certain stores I’d avoid going into entirely because the overhead lighting would give me a headache. Funny enough my husband never knew what I was talking about but this past year has started to become photosensitive. He blames rapamycin because that’s the one thing has changed. I on the other have become slightly less photosensitive lately.

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#51

@medaura, That’s really wild. You are the first person I’ve heard of having the same experience.

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#52

Was your post aimed at me? I was responding to Joseph, and he asked a question about a 180F sauna. So I assumed this was an infrared sauna (but I might have been wrong in that assumption). Infrared Sauna’s commonly use wavelengths in the FIR spectrum - albeit sometimes a hybrid combination of NIR and FIR is used.

Plus, as mentioned in my post: there are multiple publications discussing MMP activation upon excessive NIR (and/or MIR and/or FIR) exposure. I listed only a few of them, but as said: there are multiple other publications available.
I also mentioned that the problem with these publications is that in different studies very different parameters are used - including at moments very high doses of NIR (or MIR or FIR, or a combination). So as said: with all these different (combinations of) wavelengths, intensity levels and devices used, it’s difficult to draw conclusions, and I follow a personal approach out of caution that others might not agree with. I do so, since imo we simply don’t seem to know yet what doses and spectral wavelengths are optimal.

Indeed, the second publication used a combination of IRA and IRB. We’ve been discussing several things in this thread. Joseph mentioned a sauna (IR saunas as mentioned quite commonly use FIR). And in the first Podcast Scott Zimmerman pointed out that research suggests we are in fact ‘missing out’ on most of the IR spectrum with the LEDs most of us use indoors. He suggested that possibly not the blue light in itself, but this imbalance between blue and NIR light that a lot of people are constantly exposed to indoors, might be suboptimal for health. Thus I’ve bought a heat lamp to try to somewhat ‘replicate’ the solar spectrum. Besides emitting light in the IRA spectrum, this lamp also emits IRB and a small portion of IRC. So this differs from Photobiomodulation PBM, that you are referring to, and that indeed is also discussed throughout the thread. (In earlier studies mostly described as LLLT). I will say that over the years I’ve read publications discussing that IRA, IRB and IRC can increase MMP activation, not just IRB or IRC. So it’s not just as simple as ‘pick the right wavelenghts’, and my personal interpretation has been it’s more a question of ‘optimal dosing’ to avoid the biphasic response discussed in research.

Having said all that, concerning PBM, in the first Podcast Zimmerman also pointed out that it is unlikely that it is most optimal to only use these specific few wavelengths that are most commonly used in PBM (650, 680, 850nm 1050nm etc). But these are just the LED diodes that are readily available based on among others existing semiconductor technology. These are most often used in research as a result. He suggested balance was key, in other words, and how in that sense outdoor light is optimal.

All in all, I have been wondering myself about different wavelengths (including IRA but also IRB and IRC) and among others their effects on skin. And the studies I’ve seen over the years don’t give a solid answer, given all these different parameters that are used, as mentioned.

This study below for example uses IRA, but also in the spectrum 700 - 1400nm. Again, you can now argue that it also uses light in the 900-1000nm spectrum, which some, but not all PBM panels cover. Besides that, high doses were used. One would have to be out in the sun in summertime around the equator for hours to get similar amounts of NIR exposure. And that’s exactly what I said in my post: I haven’t been able to find a body of research wherein comparable parameters are used, and that thus more solid conclusions can be drawn from. But as said I have taken a personal approach with more moderate exposure than I see a lot of other people do, that I’m sure others may disagree with.

Frankly I also don’t want to get into long discussions about that, as we’ve been there before in the prior thread, and while I understand your criticism that you voiced in that thread also, since so many different parameters are used in available research: I’d rather have people would post and discuss more studies that could bring more clarity. Because I’ve looked over quite a few publications, also years ago, but I feel there are no solid conclusion to be drawn yet when it comes to optimal parameters, doses, and the biphasic response - and thus potential adverse effects.

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15336241] Infrared Radiation-Induced Matrix Metalloproteinase in Human Skin: Implications for Protection)

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#53

You are correct.
Most evidence is from manufacturers, limited studies, and anecdotal evidence.

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#54

You mean strong reactions to various types of electric lighting? I have only heard one person independently describe the same exact experience before and it was an acquaintance on FB.

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#55

Yes, you are the only person I’ve run across mentioning the strong/negative reactions.

#56

I’ve used red lights for over couple years now and only thing I can see positive is a cleared complexion (clearer skin). Didn’t notice any effect on joint pain, or muscle pain or any other claims. Can’t confirm nor deny if it did any good at cell level or hormonal level. Basically, when I’m not lazy to mount it I’d continue to use it.

As far as sauna though, I think I have few good things to say, but main one is blood circulation and for some reason I find it harder to gain weight when I do regular sauna (3-6 times a week). I guess it revs up metabolism, plus joint and muscle pain relief (to some degree) for sure.

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#58

FYI…NIRA lighting has a 10% discount thru dec 6
…. use promo code “SANTA” at checkout

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#59

Thanks for sharing, Rapmet. Hope you don’t mind me asking, but how do you use the red lights?
With regard to sauna there is so much interesting research out there, also with regard to heat shock proteins. Dr. Rhonda Patrick has fantastic Podcasts/videos on that - likely you’ve already seen them.

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#60

I have a 36X12 and hang it from the ceiling above my bed and do 15 minutes front and 15 back about 6-10 inch above my body. I used to do it often, haven’t in last couple months just laziness i guess lol. and as I said it wasn’t anything that I could attribute other than smoother skin.

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#61

Thank you to everyone who has shared their experience and information here. I went on a deep dive into light and have found the data convincing in many areas. That said, I decided it is time to try some therapies. I purchased a Carex Day-Light Elite Light Therapy Lamp for circadian and SAD benefits and the Mito 300x for RLT and NIR. Mito has a 60 day trial, so I feel pretty comfortable giving it a try.

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#62

I wouldn’t use incandescent light bulbs or any light source with UV light.
Might be dangerous to order light meant for plants or other things, not meant for humans, if someone can’t verify the light spectrum and other things.