Maverick why do you care? If he wants to take that much why do you keep arguing back-and-forth? There have been MULTIPLE studies done up to 600 mg per week, three times what he is taking, and showed it was very safe…. Furthermore, you were asking him for “data“ about the safety of testosterone, when it has been shown at those doses to be so, all the while while being a member of a board and yourself taking a COMPLETELY experimental drug in a fashion that has ZERO data, and has tons of very apparent side effects, such as perturbed lipids, etc, that are immediately apparent on blood work.… I don’t know if arguing about the safety of a widely prescribed drug like testosterone, all the while taking rapamycin is really a great argument to get into… I think people are on this board because they are willing to go outside the box, so getting onto someone for doing so in a slightly different fashion just seems extremely hypocritical.
I think it’s pointless for both of you guys to keep arguing back-and-forth, one thing I have found as you’re not going to convince anyone to change their mind on the Internet… We are all on this board to learn and share information, I don’t think any of us agree completely with everything any of the other people are doing, we take what works for us and move on…
You don’t understand. Maverick, like me, likes a good old-fashioned slugfest argument. If you don’t believe this you have not been following his posts.
You are right I don’t understand lol… I’m all for people having differing opinions, I just feel like it’s getting nowhere and I can see both sides. I just don’t know why someone going “against the norm“ is even the slightest of big deals on a board like this one.…
They are arguing about what’s in the “normal range“… Is there ANY amount of Rapamycin, the point of this entire board, that is in the “normal range”???...Therefore completely moot argument
And what ageaTron is saying is correct, a lot more of the “normal range” for the United States used to end at around 15 to 1600… I have blood tests from 20 years ago and all of them ended at 1480-1600 ng/dL for testosterone upper range… multiple articles on this have been written, some claiming it as the “Estrogenizing” of society, As the average testosterone level of an adult male has gone down substantially over the last 40 to 50 years…
I do see the point for “longevity“, there are some studies that point to lower testosterone and perhaps aging the body less, I totally get that. You can push back and also say that less testosterone overtime will lead to a lot less muscle/quality of life, as of yet there has not been one “over muscled” 80 to 90 year old, to quote Peter Attia…
“Normally” this wouldn’t occur. But, if you read Agetron’s posts he has been touting ad-nauseam for quite some time about TRT without any evidence of its longevity or healthspan properties. Whatever guys say, they take it for increased libido and muscle gain not for its health benefits. I don’t personally care which supplements people take. I do note that TRT has become a hot business model for many doctors and clinics. If you listen to a sports radio channel it is constantly being touted as a wonder drug for men.
People, I don’t understand this. When you are replacing a hormone, there is no normal . The normal range is the low I feel like crap range and when you replace it, it may be high, but the idea of replacing it is to feel better.
What is the normal range of rapamyosin in your blood? There is no normal.
I was trying to see if there was anything I was missing as far as options to Improve the longevity question. Sometimes people have things that are common sense or even out of the box that would help us all.
@Agetron seems happy AF. If a testosterone level 1500 works for him - sweet! I run a trough level of about 650 to 800, and feel great. Higher levels I get agitated and grumpy.
“touting ad-nauseam for quite some time about TRT without any evidence of its longevity or healthspan properties”…… again we are on a board taking a drug (Rapa) that has ZERO evidence in humans for longevity properties. None, and in fact has way more side effects than people on this board care to admit, and most hide behind the fact that we are doing “longevity dosing“, when in fact the drug is in our system, measurably, and could be doing the same negative things that many transplant people experience, such as clots, etc…and I say WE, bc I have hope for it too… … You said “Whatever guys say, they take it (TRT) for increased libido and muscle gain not for its health benefits”… I feel like increased libido and muscle gain ARE health benefits, big time… So something he feels makes him have a better life? Again not sure I see the reason that is a negative. And I feel like increased libido, less body fat, more muscle, better mood, better energy are all “longevity“ benefits…
I see way more “measurable” benefits of testosterone than I do rapamycin. I just feel like if people are going to gamble with rapamycin, then someone else taking testosterone should be the least of their worries…
I mean some people would say that stuff you do, like Nootropics is “messing with your brain“, “just to be smarter”, but it doesn’t have any longevity benefits… I mean there are zero studies that show Piracetam etc extends life in humans… I’m not trying to say you’re doing anything negative AT ALL, I too take Nootropics, piracetam, Selegiline, etc…I’m just making a point and giving an example of how talking about someone else’s experience and then saying it’s a negative is perhaps not a great strategy, and ESPECIALLY on this board. Please don’t hate me for saying that about the piracetam, I really respect you as a person, as much as anyone on this board and love your strategies. I really do. I think you’re awesome. Love reading everything you say, you have a very rational approach. I think you should try testosterone ha ha
There is heavy evidence that rapamycin extends life in all mammalian studies that I know of. We are mammals, ergo, it is probable that it will extend our life also.
If you have a low testosterone level or low self-esteem you might want to take TRT to increase muscle mass and libido. The average younger male < ~50 has ample libido and the ability to increase muscle mass by going to the gym.
An anecdotal observation: I have been going to various gyms for ~60 yrs and here’s what I have noticed. At any gym, there are a group of ultra-muscular “roid” users in the 20 –40-year-old age range. I assume some of them are on a TRT regimen because it is legal. Then after ~ 40, they start to thin out. By the time I am looking at 60-plus-year-olds, they have mostly disappeared and the ones that are left usually look older than their years. After 60 most of the gym goers are mostly “normal” looking people. Where did the “roid” users go? I don’t know, but steroid bodybuilders usually don’t live to a ripe old age. TRT does not appear on any life extension protocol list that I am aware of. If it does, it has to be way down the list.
It’s clear you have a negative attitude about TRT. I’m not sure that someone who takes TRT has “low self-esteem”, or is a “roid user”, as u infer.
Your anecdotes about gym goers and thinning out after 40 have nothing to do with anything we were saying. I am not talking about “people in the gym”, I’m talking about people on this board who are taking TRT. Myself, I had a pituitary tumor in my mid 20s, I feel caused by a concussion I got playing football, yes concussions are often listed as a cause, and the prolactinoma that ensued caused a loss of testosterone.…
I benchpressed 430 pounds at age 19, without any “Roids“, so I was able to build quite a bit of muscle mass without it… I got my first gym membership in seventh grade. How many seventh graders are in the gyms you go to? I plan to be in one until I die, which may or may not be at a “ripe old age“, Although I’m almost 50, and I seem to be doing pretty well compared to my peers… I’m not sure why the hostility, I was very respectful to you. I have sound arguments and you fail to see them or acknowledge them. TRT is in multiple, MULTIPLE lists of anti-aging/longevity routines. Guys like Ross Pelton take TRT, and say it’s a “no-brainer“ with rapamycin.
As far as rapamycin increasing lifespan in mammals, and we are mammals, thus rapamycin MUST increase human lifespan, that is a BIG leap. You know that. You’ve chosen to make that leap and that’s fine. I’m on this board so obviously I have in some form or another. As an aside, CR ( calorie restriction) Also works even better than rapamycin in mice in many aspects. There are multiple reasons why decreasing your calories by 30% is not a great strategy for humans though.
Lively conversation. Because of the nay sayers…I was pretty much afraid of TRT… but interested. When I tested and met with my physician 4 years ago and started my prescription, I realized that it was a great benefit in my health… and for my aging issues.
Just speaking out so others may consider it… going natty at 60 and older not always great.
Here is something that can help… for those looking. Do TRT… or don’t. But as you age… men lose testosterone get weak and sick… for woman it is estrogen… there are options to help. That’s it.
“CR works… it just makes your life miserable”
Yeah DeStrider that’s what I’m saying… not sustainable for a human, due to mental distress! Suicide doesn’t help longevity!!
And DesertShores, I do agree that there’s a bunch of douchebags in gyms that give testosterone a bad name….and I know in my picture I look like one of those douchebags lol… It’s from Google that I attached to this account from three years ago ha ha… I tried to get rid of it after I’d already signed up and it doesn’t appear there is an easy way to do it…
Yes, I think the main thing about this board that I’d like to continue is the “Judge not” stance, which is the perspective of most of the members.
We are all risk takers and taking some gambles, hopefully, informed by science. I have not seen a dumb person on this forum.
I was still a very strong, tall athlete at age 59 when I chose to get testosterone replacement two years ago, and I did it because I could see the long, slow, muscular decline approaching. No matter how much gym work I put in, it was like standing still. Adding Testosterone has been very helpful. My numbers are similar to agetron.
But please, don’t be “that guy” that speaks with absolute certainty because you have never lived my life, faced the things I have faced, and you know what’s best for you, and that is it.
Whenever we refer to ourselves and the benefits we believe have occurred, it’s always an N of 1. So I don’t think we have to keep saying this all the time.
Nice to have a physician chimming in and adding another voice of reason in patient choice - need.
TRT is not for everyone - but should be a consideration among other things when one hits their 50’s and up. Your testosterone is going to be diminished and you are going to feel those affects. If you are looking for quality of life, health and life span - it is worth consideration. Living the longest without the pleasure of your body’s function, mental/mind and physical activity - in my opnion isn’t living.
I am counting on rapamycin and TRT providing me with all the above.
You cannot compare results between labs, his values are still within reference for his lab and even if they were slightly out of refence, not all slightly abnormal lab values are problematic (only a few are)
I would say in comparing results between labs (which I do a lot) you need to take into account the fact that different labs have different analyser. However, I accept the point that you cannot simplistically compare between labs. Also when a lab changes its analyser that can change the results. However, it should be possible to consider a lab result as having an objective meaning in terms of mass or otherwise in a given volume.
sure you can compare values, just convert to the same units… that is why I was asking why reference value for T in USA is so much higher than in Europe (highest reference point is almost double respectively 1586 vs 871). It does not make sense. And from studies on median T values 871 is more correct than 1586. So why are American doctors supplementing TRT so high?
. The normal range is the low I feel like crap range and when you replace it, it may be high, but the idea of replacing it is to feel better.