I have to respectfully disagree with Kevin (Dr Toman) when he says the newer, higher -but-less-frequent (once weekly) dose was “not for any scientific reason”. I recall Matt specifically saying on an Attia podcast that it was for safety reasons, to minimize risk of harm in addition to convenience. The half life of rapamycin is still pretty long in dogs, so it stands to reason that giving it 3x weekly could cause some degree of continuous immunosuppression over time, not to mention the potential for metabolic side effects over the long haul. Dr. Toman would probably say he’s been giving the 3x weekly dose safely to dog patients for years, but he’s been using powder in capsules, which has recently been shown to only have 30% of the absorption of pharma grade tablets, so he’s actually been prescribing a much much lower effective dose this whole time. The dogs may have been getting more side effects if they’d been taking the 3x weekly dose with pharma tablets, but nobody knows for sure.
Virtually all humans who take rapa for aging use it at most once weekly, if not less often, to cycle it on/off and give the body plenty of time without continuous mtor inhibition. I don’t know why it would/should be any different for dogs.
For a sick dog who needs intensive therapy, I can see how the higher dose might be warranted (and that could very well be the right approach for this particular thread involving cancer and such), but for prevention I stick with the Dog Aging Project protocol unless/until new data suggests that more frequent is better.
I talked to Dr. Kaeberlein’s directly about NMN and TMG. He’s not a fan. Lol. I never asked him about rapa. Should have! However, if my memory serves me right, Dr. Kevin had said he spoke to Dr. Kaeberlein directly as well about the rapa dosage, but I don’t know for sure. Maybe it’s a good time to double check with him, as my last rapa consultation was a while back. My dogs don’t take the powder version anymore, they take the sirolimus tablets from India, but I remember Dr. Kevin filled my first few prescriptions with the powder in caps. I don’t know what he uses now, but last I heard he had a new supplier. About maintenance dosages, in one of his interviews Dr. Kaeberlein said he cycles rapa (personal use). My dogs don’t do well without it, especially the oldest guy (not the one with sarcoma). I wish I could find a way to cycle it because maybe it would help his muscles by simply not inhibiting mTor for a while. He eats mainly very low carb meals, once a day. Does anyone here cycles the rapa dosage on old dogs successfully? I have a 90 yr. old uncle with Parkinson’s and his doc gives him Mtor (actual name of the drug in Brazil) 4 mos on and 4 mos off, and it seems to help his mobility. I understand my dog doesn’t have the neurological condition, but I wonder if there is a way to cycle his dosage without causing any decline. He walks daily but has lost more muscle mass than expected when he stopped running due to poor vision. He doesn’t have cancer, that we know of, and he’s been on rapa for 4 yrs plus, with very few breaks.
Thanks for the reply, in the meanwhile I listened to the podcasts with Dr Makis. He is also in favor of the following treatments; ketogenic diet, 72h fasting to induce autophagy, high dose vitamin C and high dose melatonin
That’s correct. My dog, Pinball, and my very own protocol was mentioned in one of his email blasts, for the unusual survival time without chemo and/or surgery…Have you listened to Dr. Seyfried? He has a book called “Cancer as a Metabolic Disease”. My GP interviewed him on his YouTube channel. I can try to share it here. I hope it’s allowed. I don’t want to break any site policies. I downloaded his book, but haven’t started reading it yet. In the past 2 years I’ve been watching a lot of folks succumbing to very painful cancers. Dr. Makis, Dr. Seyfried, and others, as well as Pinball’s cancer protocol is changing the way I look at cancer and other conditions deemed progressive and incurable. https://youtu.be/1NgHYkBPxGc?si=8s1vR8XVHh453Jn4
Sorry, I just have to point out that low glycemic diet is not necessarily a low carb diet. In fact low carb, low fat or low protein are all very non-nuanced and not helpful IMO.
There are ton of carbs like sourdough breads, purple potatoes, reheated black/brown rice, buckwheat, that contain resistant starches, fibers such as beta glucans and ton of minerals and polyphenols. Grains such as oats contain avenanthramides, its only sources.
I understand the difference between low glycemic foods and low carb, but in my experience the mainly raw carnivore diet has worked for my dogs. Considering my boxer-pit is going on 17, without any major health conditions, I think I will stick to it for the time being, but thanks for the additional information. My boy with sarcoma was a street dog, and about 10 or so when he came to live with me, so I have no idea what his life was like before. For now the very low carb diet is working well for him. His cancer is no longer progressing (and possibly improving), his CKD is back to stage 1, liver enzymes are great, heart murmurs are gone, and his blood pressure is under control. I would be very afraid to try something new because this is working really well. Docs gave him 1 to 3 months to live. We are going on our 8th month and he seems to be doing better everyday. Again, thanks for the info.
What do you think, what part of the job was done by the Five Leaf Pet kidney protocol plus, and what part by Azovast and Calcium? Just a guess? I live in Europe, and I might have trouble buying this protocol. I ordered an equivalent of Azovast that’s available here for my dogs, but I wanted to know what you think, what had the key effect?
Great Discussion, my 6 pound papillon has Glumerial kidney disease. There was a pub med article that Rapa is bad for the glumeria in humans so at this time he is not getting any. Does anyone have any more info?
I think everything worked together to improve his condition. Diet is a big part of it. The Azovast works on the nitrogen, the phosphate binder as the name suggests, does it’s own thing, and the whole protocol from Five Leaf Pet. If I had to pick only a few items, I’d say I would go for the Azovast, phosphate binder off and on (check blood work because it can work very fast), and the main rena-cleanse drops from Five Leaf or you can try the canine renal support from Standard Process. I do red light treatment on kidneys along with the cryotherapy they recommend. His CKD is not progressing. The values change a bit due to his crazy diet during the initial cancer therapy. Now, he is stable, 90% back to nornal, so I should be able to stabilize the kidneys even more. Sorry about the late response. Best of luck with your furbaby.
Pinball has CKD. He was on stage 3 and we brought him back to stage 1. He has been on 3mg of rapa 3x week. If the rapa affects the kidneys at all, my boy’s kidney protocol is doing a good job at keeping it stable. I do blood work every 2 mos to check his kidneys, considering the huge amount of drugs and supplements he is taking. His liver values are always beautiful, so I don’t check them as often. Five Leaf Pet Kidney protocol, Azovast, Standard process renal support, blood cleanse tonic from Five Pet and hawthorn full spectrum extract is my complete kidney treatment, along with fasting 24 hrs, and a mainly carnivore diet, with some veggies in the food I get from Dr. Harvey. Best of luck with your furbaby.
A Google search for acute Rapamycin nephrotoxic will get some results . Rapamycin has been used in many human kidney transplant patients safely, and afaik the dog aging project has not observed kidney damage in dogs. I wondered if I had killed my dog since her kidneys failed a day after her Rapamycin dose. I will never know.
The immunosuppressant dosage appears to be higher than longevity dosages. My dog has been on rapa for over 4 years and at almost 17 yr old (he’s 75lbs) his CKD is at stage 1 and has never progressed. He was on 3mg 3x week and now on 3mg 2xweek. I will consider cyclying to see how it would impact muscle mass. The old boy is slowing down.