Salt / Sodium's role in accelerating aging

Idk, but dietary sodium often doesn’t increase blood sodium, it’s the least of things I’m concerned about among many other things (eg too little taurine/magnesium). It even helps suppress appetite

Optimal sodium is 173% of that of the RDA, and even beyond that the mortality curves don’t increase much and the mortality rate is for a population composite, so it includes salt-sensitive IN ADDITION to salt insensitive individuals (Asians may be more salt-insensitive)

[but my family history has zero blood pressure issues so I don’t have to worry about this relative to overeating nuts]

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Sodium levels only increase if there isn’t enough water to pull out from surrounding cells. I think that is normal and happens more often than you think. Even a small increase might decrease healthspan and longevity. The water will still be pulled from cells. What do you think of the healthspan/lifespan study in mice I linked above. See the pelt and health of the WR mice, it is so much worse. And the lifespan decrease in mice is not from BP.

Yeah, that’s just confounding for sure. All of those graphs are probably just fake. Base it on prior evidence when it comes to blood glucose, ldl cholesterol, body weight, etc. All show the same U-shape fake curves where it is better to have pre-diabetes, be overweight, have high cholesterol, etc. If you want to argue for sodium I would try something different, as using those studies are like daydreaming. Keep in mind how the mice looked, and how much shorter they lived.

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Keep in mind the association studies. The randomized trials. The intuition. The evidence is overwhelming IMO.

I will put show another study soon which hopefully will debunk the U-shape curves, if this previous evidence with even randomized trials isn’t enough.

I don’t think the body knows how to handle sodium properly at all. We don’t know how important the signal is when we get thirsty in the morning. Most people think it’s okay to ignore thirst for awhile. We don’t take it serious, as if our body will not be harmed from not being appropriately hydrated. While sleeping the body seems to go through a serious process where you obviously can’t produce urine, but the blood has to be cleaned, and how are sodium levels and hydration levels affected during sleep? There is also a strong relationship with night time urination and aging.

It seems like a not so optimal system and might be a place where the body is not optimizing for longevity because it’s dependent on our will, many of us might sit at the computer or do something else that avoids thirst. When instinct was more common, that wasn’t a thing, and we often didn’t have our attention so grabbed with interesting things. Becoming properly hydrating after waking up seems the most important. There’s lots of connections here. Hydration and low sodium seems important.

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Analysis for individual DASH components

Among the 8 components of the DASH score, higher intakes of vegetables (P = 0.020), fruits (P = 0.002), nuts and legumes (P = 0.021), and whole grains (P = 0.044) were associated with lower GrimAA, while higher intakes of red and processed meat (P = 0.008) and sodium (P = 0.001) were associated with higher GrimAA (Supplemental Table 9).

[well my sodium had recent values of 141 and 136… 142 is the turning point of mortality… I’m way more concerned about overeating calories than I am about this]

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That is the serum sodium at a specific moment. It is the same conundrum as with blood pressure monitoring, but now we have quite accurate 24 h ones. If you are pushing 141 what about during night and in the morning, or after a meal?

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CHANGE IN PLASMA SODIUM LEVELS AFTER A MEAL

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After soup with 6 g salt vs. no added salt, the no added salt show a decrease in plasma sodium. Plasma levels of sodium increase by 2 mmol/L, difference looks to be up to 3 mmol/L.

The decrease in lifespan in rats was increasing sodium levels by 5 mmol/L !!!

The processed food industry has an iron grip with their misleading research! Most successful psyop of all time!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0085253815553118

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I do think Sodium levels are worth some attention. Here are the ones I have:

143		138		138		140		140		140		140		141		138		147		137.4		144		142.7				140.5		140.8		140		143.5		142												140				141	even with heavy supplementation			139.1	lower cos no supplementation			140.1	amazing given high level of supplementation			140.5	really heavy Na supplementation	141.7				136.8		140				140.2				140		138		141		139		139		139				142	had citrate pack 30 mins before test	141	had citrate pack 30 mins before test	140	had citrate pack 30 mins before test		had citrate pack 20 mins before test	135.9				141	lunch 30 mins before													140.3						137.9				140.5		140				139.5				141.1				143.4				135.8		138.6										139.9							145.4				140.1				145.2						142.9		144				138.8				143

Remembering that at times I have had really quite high sodium supplementation it is interesting how they move around. I am currently working on identifying a good balance of cations which results in a low serum sodium level and also good blood pressure.

Immediately today I have a temporary blood pressure issues which I think is caused by first binge drinking for three days on the trot and then not drinking at all and also having a partial fast. Obviously sodium is not the only issue that affects blood pressure.

Blood pressure doesn’t increase in some people, ESPECIALLY healthy people, that’s not the concern

But I admit I have enough dietary restrictions already - I can’t go any further than that. All the low calorie convenient food, like salsa, has salt

How about just SGLT2 inhibitors?

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There is too many confounders in that study, the authors say they are infinite. They are barely adjusting for anything! And doing measurement of sodium intake one single time. And the problem with sodium isn’t the BP increase even though that is harmful, the problem is the potential decrease in longevity and health via multiple mechanisms, reducing hydration, increasing serum sodium, etc. I wonder what it does to the gut microbiome too.

There is a large market in the U.S of no added sodium foods, as well as in some other places as well, because of many people being prescribed a low sodium diet.

I couldn’t find any for salsa.

I will have to read about SGL2i like cana what they do.

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If you eat 12 g of salt a day because of this confounded association study, just know that it is the same equivalent dosage that destroys mice brains. It also goes against every medical society’s recommendation for sodium intake, but you don’t care about that, just about having bad takes as long as they are contrarian.

@SouthHill @Arrow

Also it is logically inconsistent to take rapamycin because of mouse studies yet ignore mice studies showing life- and healthspan decrease from high serum sodium, and destroyed brains. (Let’s ignore the randomized trial in humans showing salt causing strokes, deaths, etc). Let’s instead trust this association study with confounders and the same fake U-shape curve as the rest lol.

Don’t you think it depends on hydration and kidney function?
I really like aggressively seasoned food, I tried to lower my sodium intake but my palate demands sodium. But on the other hand, my serum sodium is always on the low side (135-137 mmol/l). Should I still decrease my sodium intake?

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I’m on a low sodium diet and my sodium is 138. Yours is great! Do what you were doing imo.

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Michael Gregor doesn’t add or advocate any added sodium.
He mentions that the palate changes after awhile, I think 1-2 months, and then you get used to it and can enjoy food more again.

The Yanomani eat less than 100 mg/day of sodium:

Their blood pressure is 95.4 and 61.4, urinary sodium is 0.9 mmol/24h. BP does not increase with age!

https://www.scielo.br/j/abc/a/8yHr8tMsx5hB6s3sbQZRzKC/?format=pdf&lang=en

It feels like a toxic and addictive substance in above minimum dose. Of course having a high/normal sodium meal every now and then is fine, like on special occasions.

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I mean, seems interesting enough. Probably enough to try. BJ is not using any sodium too, if I remember correctly.

But if I would reduce sodium intake, i should reduce amount of water I drink. How about perspiration? Otherwise I would probably end up with hyponatremia or?

Its worth knowing the serum Sodium of the South African tribe. I do think having a lower serum sodium is a good idea - something under 140. I, however, eat a lot of Sodium Citrate. My blood pressure gyrates quite a bit on the back of alcohol metabolism, but when I stay on the wagon for a while the BP is quite good notwithstanding the sodium supplementation, but I am also supplementing high levels of potassium. (as well as magnesium and calcium).

I am going to try out citrulline and see how that fits at some stage, but what I need to do at the moment is stop going to parties (that will be easy for a while now because we have just held our Xmas party).

However, when it comes to biohacking I think I personally am quite a good test of my hypothesis because I binge drink and eat foods such as bacon. I do control calories, but not brilliantly and also fast from time to time. However, otherwise I am atypical.

I have been reading a bit from the user wild_vegan on reddit. He seems to have been on a low sodium diet for many years. He targets the WHO minimum of 500 mg but he does so by eating vegetables, if he goes below it it doesn’t matter to him because of the Yanomani eating 100 mg a day. If he doesn’t have access to vegetables or he exercises a lot he adds some salt, but he says he notices if he is deficient as he has extreme salt and sour cravings or his sweat doesn’t taste salt (like one time with intense exercise in the mountains). Acids like lemon juice and vinegar depolarize the sodium taste buds on tongue so they’re a good replacement as well, salt taste can’t be replaced but one gets used to lower quantities. Lots of sodium lost in sweat is a post-hoc fallacy.

It’s not an RDA, it’s a Daily Reference Intake. The American Heart Association recommends ideally less than 1500 or 1200 for people with problems. The WHO recommends 500 as a “safe lower bound” that covers people who exercise. The Yanomami Indians in Brazil consume around 250 mg with no ill effects, and it’s hot down there, they sweat. True physiological need was estimated to be around 125. There is a monograph on sodium by the WHO health organization if you want to look it up. It can’t possibly be true that we need to eat mineral salt as long as we consume adequate vegetation. It’s not true for any other mineral, unless there’s a dietary deficiency.

I’ve gone very long periods of time. I’ve trained for a 50k on a no-salt diet. “Years” doesn’t matter because excess sodium will be dumped much sooner than that. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Kempner and his studies of sodium restriction in hypertensives before there was any anti-hypertensive medication (the “rice diet”) but it took maybe 3 months for people to really bottom out their BPs. That was probably without exercise. Sweating will drop your BP faster, but your body will adjust the salinity of your sweat so it’s a myth that people who sweat a lot need a lot of salt–they are making a post-hoc fallacy.

Anyway, the signs and symptoms of a true sodium deficiency are intense cravings for salt and sour foods (they depolarize the sodium taste buds on your tongue). Your water throughput (i.e. thirst & urination) could also get weird in the context of exercise. The only time this has happened to me was when I was weaning off lisinopril, and when I was training for that 50k. My sweat had no discernible salty taste at all, I didn’t get thirsty for a long time during a run, and lemon juice was like manna from heaven. In both cases I just increased my intake.

Recently, I’m actually having a bit of a problem. I’m intermittent fasting and on a lower-carb diet, which are known to have a natriuretic effect (insulin prevents sodium loss by independently acting in the kidneys, according to a recent theory. That’s why all those keto people need to eat shitloads of salt to feel OK.) So if you’re fasting you might want to supplement. But I’m a little worried I won’t be able to get down to no salt due to long COVID. Lately, I’ve felt a little brain fogged and prone to migraines when not adding a salt packet (200 mgs) to each meal. It could just be an adjustment period, though. I have some other problems that seem to be the result of COVID, although they are slowly going away.

Anyway, if you’re healthy and don’t have SIADHS or POTS (which… is salt really the answer?), and aren’t on an extreme exercise routine, there aren’t going to be any negative effects. I’d recommend reducing your intake somewhat slowly. If you’re reducing for BP, keep in mind the above, that it can take a couple of months to see the biggest reduction. Usually the best effects have really started for me when the salinity of my sweat was noticeably reduced. When that happens, you will also be able to have a “cheat” every once in a while, like a restaurant meal, without seriously spiking your BP, because your body will have space to shunt the sodium into for excretion.

The only time I’ve ever had an issue reducing sodium is now, after COVID. It could be my imagination and a third variable, though, like fasting or stress. There’s no serious danger of hyponatremia, which is usually caused by excess fluid consumption, especially in the context of exercise + SIADHS. Just drink when you’re thirsty and you’ll be fine.

Running or hiking up to 10-11 miles say 3 times a week was just fine, the only time it really became an issue was with high-mileage days. In that case you will want to allow some processed food like unsalted pretzels (assuming they contain sodium), dried apples, clif bars or what not. Those will usually contain enough sodium to supplement your intake. Keep in mind that sodium & water balance is hormonally controlled, so it’s all relative. If you take in 500 mg a day from food, you don’t suddenly need 2000 today just because you’re going for a run. You’ll find that the salinity of your sweat is an excellent proxy for sodium balance. A couple of days of eating veggies with no exercise will make my sweat salty again even if I’m just getting 500 mg. YMMV. Do it gradually and you’ll be fine.

Trying to decrease water intake deliberately doesn’t make any sense to me since the body will just ramp up urine production if it’s too much. Only problem is when the body can’t keep up with that because of drugs, kidney problems, or simply drinking abnormal amounts of water in too short of a period.

If someone eats sodium a lot with meals, it’s probably better to have an even lower serum sodium so the elevation by 2 mmol/L etc isn’t happening to higher levels. Best is probably a low sodium diet. I don’t know how valuable serum sodium since the sample is only 1 time at a specific time. It it’s an outlier then that might be important (like higher end of reference range, or outside it).

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Interesting idea. I’m not convinced sodium has a direct impact on aging per se but the downstream effects of too much sodium could shorten lifespan. From a blood pressure and artery stiffness perspective lower sodium is better as well as from a stomach cancer perspective. The average person probably needs to cut down but I’m not sure there is any huge benefit going from eg. 1000mg to 500mg

I remember listening to a sodium expert on the life scientific podcast ((The Life Scientific - Graham MacGregor on tackling the demons in our diet - BBC Sounds // Graham MacGregor - Wikipedia)) who was advocating for a very low sodium diet (less than 500mg) for reducing chronic disease.

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What I have not really tested out is what my serum sodium levels would be were I to not supplement with Sodium for a day or two prior to testing.

Studying the methylation results which I have posted about on my blog:

I have concluded that I should continue the acetyl-CoA enhancement and transcription promotion (HDACi generally) as much as possible as this will act to drive down methylation. If I get the methylation levels low enough I could pull back on acetyl-CoA enhancement.

The mix I am using for Citrate implies that roughly if I am supplementing with 20g of citrate in a day, that will involve supplementing with 4-5 grams of sodium, but slightly less for higher potassium. Generally I take all of this before the blood test. Although today I have only taken half (and that could drive a different result in today’s blood test).

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My HR seems to have increased after starting on a low sodium diet, I think it was on Tuesday when I made this post, but might not be enough data. HRV has also decreased from 20-30 to 16 ms today.

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