But the paper you quoted supports what I said…elite athletes had very little (if any) benefit over those of “high” fitness. So aggressive training does not seem to bring any great extra benefit. As long as one is of average to above average fitness one will gain the benefits. I believe I’d be in the “average” category and I happen to take metformin.
If you believe I shouldn’t, then I thank you for your concern.
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“The lowest improvement is going from high to elite…(but) It is still statistically significant.”
Re: Metformin
I will change my mind if better data becomes available. Others desperately need to read some Daniel Kahneman (confirmation bias, sunk cost fallacy etc)
You keep saying that every time you are losing an argument. You might want to re-read it yourself and do little self-reflection
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Maveric, I think you’re missing my point. Yes, I acknowledge that those studies demonstrate SLIGHT reduction in hypertrophy. My point is that the suggested benefits in longevity FOR ME outweigh that deleterious effect. And I made it a point to say “anecdotally“ for me, metformin has not had any negative impact on my strength or muscle mass.
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Omg this comment is just delusional
It’s the impact on VO2 that I am primarily concerned about as that has the greater correlation to all cause mortality (see above)… There are no ‘suggested benefits in longevity’ for non diabetics, it failed the ITP plus this:
Over a median of 21 years (interquartile range 20–21), 453 participants died. Cancer was the leading cause of death (n = 170), followed by cardiovascular disease (n = 131). Compared with placebo, metformin did not influence mortality from all causes (HR 0.99 [95% CI 0.79, 1.25]), cancer (HR 1.04 [95% CI 0.72, 1.52]), or cardiovascular disease
I’m still the only one on the thread providing data…
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The discussion here is about the surprising positive synergistic effect of Metformin AND Rapamycin described in the original post. You keep posting studies about Metformin.
And dude back off on the personal attacks, that’s not what this community is about.
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Yes, if you’re diabetic metformin is beneficial… if not it is detrimental.
I am interested in the results of the TAME study. In the interim I will continue to take Metformin.
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My sentiment exactly.
I also find almost everyone on this forum is unfailingly polite and helpful…it really is exceptional.
But I don’t think anyone appreciates being “lectured to” or subjected to ad hominem remarks.
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There probably little value in taking metformine if you are lean, metabolically healthy, eat low carb and don’t snack between meals (which of course excludes most of the general population) … If there are little benefits you can only get side effects
I agree the studies show that it is primarily beneficial for younger people, but the jury is still out on the benefits to older people or the synergy of metformin and rapamycin. I am not going to repost the benefits of metformin beyond glucose control.
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If there is minimal value in metformin, why would Nir Barzilai be putting so much time and effort for the TAME study?
A drug that cost less than $10.00 a month in the US
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Best I can tell, he believes that rapamycin is the better drug but he does not want to kill anyone. He knows that Metformin is safe.
There is a lot of value in metformine for the metabolically unhealthy, ie the majority of the adult population
Is it possible that while metformin has a statistically significant negative effect on aerobic/hypertrophy response to exercise, that the “real-world/clinical” effect is tiny? Perhaps there’s room for both sides to be correct here, in a sense.
If it had any effect on my workouts I didn’t notice. It certainly wasn’t
“Oh, my, I’m not gaining any muscle. It must be the metformin!”
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Didn’t the ITP do a study on Rapamycin plus Metformin and the results were much better than Rapamycin alone? I think that is due to the synergies between them. Rapa raises blood sugar levels and Metformin controls them. I have been raising my Metformin intake to counter the hyperglycaemic effects of Rapamycin. So far it has been working.
So, yes, another anecdotal story and an ITP study suggest using Rapamycin and Metformin together.
Yes, at one time rapamycin/Metformin had the best results in the ITP study. Better than rapamycin alone or anything else studied. It may have been surpassed since. Of course it all may have been due to the rapamycin alone and laboratory variation.
Not “much better”, actually only marginally better than Rapamycin alone (perhaps not statistically significant in terms of being better than rapamycin alone).
The combination of Rapa with metformin led to as much as a 26% increase in female median lifespan and 23% increase in median male lifespan (Strong et al., 2016), although these survival results were not significantly higher than those noted in earlier experiments using the same dose (14.7 ppm) of Rapa by itself.
Although the current (C2011) cohort did not contain any mice given Rapa alone, we thought it would be of interest to compare the survival of mice receiving both Rapa and Met to survival of mice treated with the same Rapa dose in previous years, C2006 and C2009 (Miller et al ., 2011, 2014). Results are shown in Table S4 (Supporting information). Males given Met/Rapa had a 23% increase in median longevity, higher than the 10% effect produced by Rapa alone in C2006 or the 13% effect in C2009 males. When the results from C2006 and C2009 males were combined for optimal statistical power, and compared with survival in C2011 mice receiving Met/Rapa, the difference did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.12)
Supplemental Table 4: Comparison of Met/Rapa to Historical Data for Rapa alone
| Male | Female | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rx | Median (Days) |
% Change | Rx | Median (Days) |
% Change |
| Control[C2011] | 785 | Control[C2011] | 875 | ||
| Met | 847 | 8 | Metformin | 875 | 0 |
| Met/Rapa | 971 | 23 | Met/Rapa | 1079 | 23 |
| Rapa [C2006] | 887 | 10 | Rapa [C2006] | 1030 | 18 |
| Rapa [C2009] | 909 | 13 | Rapa [C2009] | 1086 | 21 |
Source: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acel.13269
As a side note, the best results the NIA ITP program has seen so far is early start (9 month) of rapamycin and acarbose. 29% lifespan improvement.
Met+ Rapa Data and lifespan / survival curves here:
Rapa Alone Data and lifespan / survival curves here:
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