No, MK has also spoken about fasting (and diet as a whole) being ‘dirty’.
Remember if muscle mass is lost:
- Metabolic rate decreases > weight maintenance becomes harder
- Insulin sensitivity decreases
- Risk of falls increases
Etc etc
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All true, but there is a sweet spot. There are advantages to slow down too. And if you alternate, you can stay strong enough.
A couple weeks ago. I had a crash on my (gravel) bike, which saw me fly head first over the cockpit. My right hand hurt for a few days, as it took the blunt of the first impact, but otherwise I just rolled over and landed on my feet. I had to bring my bike to the shop, and throw away a few pieces of kit, but I was fine, with just a few scratches.
I mean of course I need muscle to prevent the risk of falls. But I’m already okay, and I’ll keep erxercise to ensure that it stays that way. And I also need autophagy to rejuvenate my cells (in a nutshell). And fasting doesn’t prevent me to exercise enough.
Besides, I do like fasting, for a while. It’s nice, it gives you some sort of lightness and clarity, and freedom (knowing that you can function for several days without food nor getting weak), and more free time (not eating, cooking, shopping).
I plan to try rapamycin next year. Maybe it’s better than fasting, then I might change my stance. But, yes, there is a sweet spot. You don’t have to bet everything on just one horse.
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Hi,…there have been some interesting comments in response to your original comment. I’ve decided to weigh in with some comments from my personal experience. I’ve been interested in health for over 40 yers now…but I’d never considered fasting. I knew calorie restriction could be beneficial for weight loss, but I was never motivated to try fasting. During the process of writing my book Rapamycin, mTOR, Autophagy & Treating mTOR Syndrome, I gained a whole new understanding and appreciation for fasting. I’ve been doing the 16:8 protocol most days for the past 9 months. I never tried longer fasts because I figured that it would be a struggle and a miserable experience. Two weeks ago, I tried a 24-hour fast…and I was amazed at how easy it was for me. Last week, I did a 3-day fast (only consuming water, herbal teas or coffee). Again, I was astounded at how easy it was for me. I’m now a fasting convert and I think in addition to adhering to a 16:8 most days, I’ll also do a 3-day fast once a month. My newer understanding about fasting is that it is not so much about weight loss…for me the primary benefit is more extended time in autophagy. Autophagy is a process of repairing and rebuilding your body. Most people constantly over-express mTOR…what I’ve called mTOR Syndrome. I think most people benefit from rapamycin and some degree of fasting.
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Yes, you repeated what you said up thread (along with another book plug).
Whether you find it ‘easy’ is irrelevant. I don’t know how to make this clearer for you. TRF (eg 16:8) is not beneficial to health and is likely detrimental (especially if you have a late feeding window).
There is no marker for autophagy and we don’t know the fast duration required to induce it. It’s therefore pure speculation to say a 3 day fast leads to ‘an extended time in autophagy’.
I would like to see DEXA scan data pre and post 3 day fast. I suspect that a significant proportion of the weight loss will be from lean muscle. The data shows that sarcopenia accelerates after 70 so, at that age, I would be doing everything possible (except HGH) to maintain it… Rapamycin, creatine, adequate protein and NOT fasting.
Fasting also primes stem cells for proliferation, repairing and regrowing tissues. That happens during the first few refeeding days after the fast, a time when I eat plenty of protein and do lots of exercise to stimulate growth and repair.
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Peter has coined the phrase, ‘Strong convictions loosely held’. On this thread I think we’re seeing examples of ‘strong convictions rigidly held’ (plus the evangelism of the newly converted). There are certainly several examples of contention/theory stated as fact.
Note that the above piece was written in 2019 an ‘age’ in this rapidly developing field. Over the last year or so we’ve seen Peter become less ardent in his support for fasting/TRF (see podcast episode 201) whilst, in contrast, his attitude towards rapamycin has become more ‘bullish’. I note in one show he mentions how Beth Lewis advised against continuing with longer fasts due to their impact on lean muscle…
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Wow, you really take a deep dive. Just, to be clear I don’t have an opinion on fasting as I currently don’t do it. I have tried in the past a few times for 76 hours and didn’t notice anything special on my blood work.
As a child, I was never hungry in the morning and was upset that my mother insisted that I eat breakfast, so I was put on a path of eating breakfast as a social norm for most of my life.
After I retired I have tried a few different eating plans such as a keto, South Beach, etc.
Now I don’t have a special diet except avoiding too many simple carbs. As I posted on another topic, I practice 18/6 time-restricted feeding. I really don’t like that label as I fell into this pattern naturally because there is no social pressure on my eating habits.
I like ", ‘Strong convictions loosely held’. because my path is mostly whichever way the wind is blowing. Adaptability is a good survival strategy.
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Nutrition is indeed a messy subject where people character flaws tend to gain the overhand. Thus, people who like to fast will tend to attribute to it more virtues than science can confirm. And people who cannot fathom staying more than a few waking hours without eating will be tempted to negate any benefit to the practice.
What is confirmed by science, to my knowledge, is indeed rather weak for IF. It looks like only the time of day (of the eating windows) has a measurable influence: eating rather in the morning is better than eating rather in the evening, and past that, nothing really emerges.
But from my experience, practicing IF helps to fast longer occasionally. I will guess that your metabolism then switches more easily to fat-burning and light ketosis, without bothering you. It is even easier if you “eat keto” (on top of IF) a couple days before a fast. And fasting has been shown to improve several important regenerative processes, for example in conjunction with chemotherapy. If those benefits are atteinable without tremendous effort, the risk of not optimizing muscle mass seems acceptable to me.
Of course, fasting (for several days) is also a risk, and I wouldn’t recommend anyone to fast longer than they feel is comfortable for them. And I wouldn’t recommend it at all to people heavily addicted to sugar, including athletes, especially if they consume those glucose-fructose composites that optimize the replenishment of glycogen. They quite probably would feel miserable, not getting any benefit.
So, yes, as often with nutrition, it is a personal matter, at least for a sizable minority. It may change when we will be able to master genetics more completely.
Update (in rabbits), HT agingdoc1:
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The articles reported positive effects of combining the two eating patterns for type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, inflammatory conditions, and weight reduction and maintenance. Low-carbohydrate diet and fasting together provide synergy in decreasing metabolic syndrome (as the key causes of chronic illnesses), such as insulin levels, fasting glucose, blood pressure, triglycerides, and regulating lipid profile.
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Hi all, I’m new here. I don’t have much to add to most of the discussion (most here clearly know more than I do about most topics), but I do know a fair amount fasting. Ergo, my first post is here.
You make the point about rigidly held convictions- I’ll address some of yours…
“Fasting” is, intuitively, the norm in human evolution. We didn’t have a fridge and we didn’t start out farmers. We started out having to kill to survive (yes, we are omnivores, but animal meat was essential). We’d kill and eat our fill. We didn’t kill 3x/day. We had weather impacting food availability and causing famines. Survival was difficult.
My obvious point is that to call IF likely harmful ignores this reality. I would argue that there is no way our bodies are designed to eat multiple times per day. Once you get used to IF, it’s very easy. I average 19/5. Hungry sometimes, but rarely. More often, I lose track of time and realize I better eat because I’m 22, 24 hours with zero calories. It’s an easy adaptation for most- I believe that’s for good reason: THIS is normal, what everyone else does is abnormal, and only made possible due to advancements in food availability.
Taken further, going a couple few (or more) days between eating (ie: longer term fasting) was also the norm- just like other animals. Our bodies know what to do: switch to ketones, autophagy, etc. Why do our bodies know to do this? Obviously, because this reality was ALWAYS there and, thus, “designed in”. Starting day 3-4, it actually gets easier because your body realizes/thinks that it needs to operate well to find food in a difficult environment.
It’s becoming fairly accepted that fasting during chemo days for cancer patients is beneficial. Many find longer fasts (7 days+) heal long held ailments, pains, rashes, etc. Fasting has been used in many cultures for centuries. By definition, fasting starves the pathogens (especially of glucose)- again, intuitive if you give it a thought.
As to lean muscle loss… Muscle memory is forever. Any muscle “lost” comes back VERY quickly after the fast IF (a big IF) you do resistance training. For people incapable of doing resistance training due to injury/whatever- I agree with you. For everyone else, they’ll be back where they were , or stronger, in a matter of days. If you feel you lost too much weight during a fast, then bump up your caloric intake 5-7 days after the fast.
There’s a fair amount of evidence out there that shows things that make the body uncomfortable (heat, cold, fasting), cause the body to adapt in ways that are beneficial. Again, intuitively easy to understand- the body’s job is to survive.
I would posit that fasting should be even more beneficial to the type of people in this group. Many fast then go back to ice cream, cake and Mountain Dew. This group is more disciplined with their normal diet than average. So the post-fasting adjustment back to normal eating will be with a much better base diet to begin with.
As to whether fasting is additive to Rapamycin? I don’t know. Hell, much of what Rapamycin does is a mystery insofar as why and how. Fasting is way more understood that Rapamycin.
Ideally, I’d like to fast 5-7 days 3-4x/year with a couple 2-3 day fasts thrown in when doable (this isn’t too difficult when you eat 19/5 anyway). Am I following this right now? No. 5-7 days, especially a dry fast (my preference) is tough to schedule 4x/year. I’ve managed 2x 5 day dry fasts/year with a few 2-3 day fasts thrown in, along with my normal IF which I do about 90% of the time.
For anyone fasting who isn’t keto (I’m not), I’d suggest that the 24 hours before the fast be keto so that your glycogen stores are already well towards depleted from the get go.
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Welcome…and thanks for your comments. I’ve been a convert to a healthy lifestyle since 1979, when, on a whim, I walked into a yoga class. Although I ate healthy, I’d not considered fasting…until I wrote Rapamycin, mTOR, Autophagy & Treating mTOR Syndrome. Learning about rapamycin, mTOR & autophagy introduces & educated me about the importance of IF & time restricted eating (TRE). Now I’m a convert…and a proselytizer. As far as I’m concerned…it’s a no-brainer. In previous posts I’ve mentioned how surprised I was to learn that…for me, doing a 2-day and the following week, a 3-day fast was. Zero discomfort. I plan on doing a 3-day fast once a month for the rest of my life.
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Fully concur, extended fasting was the evolutionary normal. Fridges, Costcos, corner convenience stores, advanced shelf life packaging, engineered man made foods, snacking, vending machines, gas station kiosks, 2 hr prime delivery, disposable income, constant food marketing exposure*…ad libitum food availability is never more than arms length away, has “caused” (it’s not the food, it’s human nature to not keep your hand away from your mouth at even the slightest hunger signal or sight of food!) massive nutritional overdose, and unleashed a constellation hell of metabolic dysregulation. Only advanced standard of living healthcare access has caused rising life expectancy.
*my normal non-hacking wife was watching a foodie show, and told me “turn it off, it’s making me hungry”. Which I did.
Doctors/hospitals should be needed only for emergencies, cancers, pathogen exposures, pandemics, people whose randomly inherited genetic profile results in disease; not for treating self induced morbidity.
I’ve read a lot of papers on various fasting protocols on various model organisms, and have yet to find one that does not result in superior metabolic profile or longevity.
Seeking the Fountain of Youth: Is Dietary Restriction the Key to a Longer and Healthier Life?
LUIGI FONTANA, M.D., Ph.D.
University of Salerno Medical School, Department of Medicine, Italy Washington University in St.Louis, Division of Geriatrics, USA CEINGE Biotecnologie Avanzate, Napoli, Italy
https://www.thefutureofscience.org/uploads/b83a1faffc94942d1b3c2dda33923659.pdf (more CR)
I’ve easily adapted to my current regime of 24hr daily fasting, with only benefits to report.
If I was living in a monastery, I’d probably venture into more fasting overlays. I believe I could easily maintain muscle by increasing resistance exercise on extended fasts, but do I want to work/stress that hard? And depending on how deep, the whole refeed cycle management?
b83a1faffc94942d1b3c2dda33923659.pdf (2.8 MB)
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Hi Mac…a big, BIG thanks for providing the link: Seeking the Fountain of Youth:
Is Dietary Restriction the Key to a Longer and Healthier Life? Wonderful consolidation of supportive studies on benefits of IF & CR/DR eating.
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My goodness this is cognitive dissonance gone crazy. If you’re over 60 you absolutely should not be fasting.
Just keep your body fat low with a normal healthy diet and exercise.
“If you’re over 60 you absolutely should not be fasting.”
Surely you jest? Those on the autism spectrum do not easily recognize sarcasm.
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No. I’ll say again, in the ITP calorie restriction had to be initiated in early life to increase longevity. Also, as we age we must prioritise maintenance of muscle mass. That means no fasting, no TRF and adequate protein.
Cognitive dissonance?
I don’t see the point in ignoring what was said and presenting nothing to refute the evolutionary points made. Your ad hominem leads me to think that you personally just REALLY hate fasting. If you’re aware of refrigerators and Costco’s in the fossil record, please provide a link and I’ll stand corrected.
I don’t understand why you have this rigid belief that maintaining muscle mass and fasting are mutually exclusive. This is objectively wrong.
You seem to associate fasting exclusively with weight loss. The people I know who fast are not obese, nor are they thin. We are not talking about what a frail elderly person should do here. Unfortunately, my mother falls into that category and, obviously, I wouldn’t want her to fast- the risk/reward is upside down.
In contrast, we are talking about fit, healthy individuals. In your observations, how many healthy individuals, who do resistance training, struggle to gain weight vs struggle NOT to gain weight? Gaining weight pre or post fast isn’t some solving nuclear fusion level task that you envision. Further, “I just can’t seem to gain weight back after my fast” has been said zero times in human history. The weight comes back too quick for 99.999% of people who fast.
Much like my prior post, these are not subjective points I’m making- they’re objectively true.
Finally, the argument that taking a pill and eschewing adjunct natural methods is a superior methodology is an odd basis for an argument. It’s the argument the vast majority of society is locked into because taking a handful of meds every morning for their Type II diabetes and 5 other related ailments is a lot easier than eating right, exercising and doing IF/fasting.
I am very hopeful about Rapamycin. That said, the number of humans that Rapamycin has objectively extended the life of currently sits at zero. Leaving an arrow in the quiver like fasting is, frankly, irrational.
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I think the evolutionary argument is a weak one. How long did prehistoric man live? 40 years? Why should we hold them up as an ideal?
Sarcopenia is (currently) an unavoidable part of aging. The rate of sarcopenia increases with age. Fasting leads to loss of lean muscle mass. All this is objective fact. You acknowledge that a frail elderly person shouldn’t fast. Where do you draw the line? I said 60 in my post above but presumably you think that number is too low?
As I have said ad nauseum, in the ITP, calorie restriction has minimal impact on longevity when initiated in middle age. In contrast Rapamycin extends life significantly in that population… ergo it has more potential. For what reasons are people fasting? What benefit does it offer over simply maintaining low body fat with a healthy diet and exercise? To paraphrase you, the number of humans that fasting has objectively extended the life of currently sits at zero.
Finally, of course you will regain weight post fast but there is a high chance that your body composition will deteriorate. Peter Attia has mentioned this phenomenon a number of times in recent podcasts.
Sorry, to disagree but I am 81 in and in very good shape. I used keto and then TRF to get to my ideal weight. My goal was to get to a BMI of 2.2. Before covid and changes made by rapamycin, my blood work numbers were very good in every category. I have been exercising at my local gym for the last 15 years and have not lost any muscle mass and I have never been stronger. Regular exercise and good nutrition are the keys to avoiding loss of muscle. TRF has been a blessing to me and I am not about to change.
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n=1
I thought we were more objective here than replying on personal anecdotes?