I have access to a Chroma ironforge in SF
Are they safe to use on eyes? Modern Healthspan has a video. I applied the light over my eyes for like 10 seconds (but it feels SUPER-BRIGHT-RED) and it’s unclear if persistent application over time carries risks.
Long Story Short has A LOT on photobiomodulation
Also I think Doris Loh has some content
I honestly think a lot of it is placebo… But there might be subtle changes in the collagen production that are impossible to measure just looking at the mirror, which may overtime give you a slightly better skin quality overtime.
Having used my platinum red lights PBM on a regular basis for over 2 years I can tell you it is not a placebo. My eyebrows have returned, my hands are plumper and the brown age spots are almost gone. Plus is I use them and go in the Florida sun I don’t burn.
What are you using for a photometer? This is the main one that I found for measuring mW/cm2 in the IR wavelength range, but it doesn’t extend past 661 nm, so wouldn’t be helpful for measuring the ~850 nm range.
Many of the inexpensive photometers on Amazon measure lux, but this is more for white light so it’s not clear to me that it would pick up the IR power accurately. It appears there are unit converters for lux to mw/cm2, but the reference wavelength is 555 nm, so it would also be inaccurate. Or, is there another way to use a regular photometer while accounting for the larger wavelength?
You are absolutely right, a regular lux meter such as the one I have does not measure the IR 850nm and the meter is calibrated in lux not power. The lights I use have 660nm red lights in addition to the 860. Most lux meters will measure the 660 with reasonable accuracy because lux meters are designed to measure light in the 380 to 700 nm visible light spectrum. The photometer I use is an old one I had laying around and I was just using it to see if the light I was using actually was putting out the amount of light the manufacturer claimed. If you use the information from the light manufacturer you can calculate the watts per centimeter squared using the inverse square law. i.e light intensity = 1/distance squared.
After doing some reading about the use of read light therapy from various authors, I think the therapeutic exposure power and time is as up in the air as rapamycin dosage and frequency.
Here is a link to a meter that measures down to the uW level from 400 - 1064nm.
And here is a link that shows how to use it:
Here is still another online converter for lux to mW:
Excellent info, thanks. Too bad more people aren’t interested in measuring IR power, or else there might be cheaper options on Amazon or something. I feel like anything beyond about $50 is prohibitive for a meter like this, let alone $560 for the Coherent meter. I suppose if some study came out showing a critical range needed for some effect, it might make sense. Solarmeter also makes another meter (Solarmeter 10.0) with a range of 400-1100 nm, but the resolution is 1 W/cm2, so much too high for our use. Perhaps Solarmeter could be convinced to redesign the electronics/resolution range.
Thanks for pointing out the 1/distance relationship for power based on the manufacturer info. This means that for something like this panel would give about 300 mW/cm2 at 12 cm, and 200 mW/cm2 at 15 cm.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Light-Therapy-Device-Near-Infrared-Beauty-Relief-Muscles/dp/B09Z363CSX/
I’m most interested in this for the positive effects on vision that you mentioned. It would be excellent to either correct mild astigmatism, or even prevent presbyopia that seems to occur in people around 40-60. How often were you doing the 15 minute sessions with closed eyes before you started noticing positive effects on vision? How long did it take to see the effects?
FWIW
The instrumental you would want would be an Infrared Red Radiometer Illuminance Power Meter{a IR Light/Power Intensity Tester.
There are many companies who manufacture these instrumentals.
Most people will not spend the moneyfor one.
I have tended to rely on the manufacturers reported power intensity. (Carelamps in the UK)
Earlier in this thread, I show how to make this. Originally I had it mounted vertically but I grew tired of standing up that long for a little therapy so I have modified it and made a red light therapy bed beside my sleeping bed. Since I am able to lie down I use it much more often, 10-12 times a week 15 minutes on each side. The lamps are of course varying distances from my body parts, but on average they are about 6" away.
I have been doing this for about three weeks now and notice a significant increase in my daily energy levels. So far it isn’t making me look any younger.
Is it enhancing mitochondrial function and increasing the number and quality of mitochondria within cells? I don’t know, but this is the first noticeably positive subjective benefit I have felt from red light therapy.
I’m really trying to wrap my head around this. I’m likely game to try this given it is cheap and could make me look/feel a bit younger for lying around and listening to a podcast every morning.
Would a fair summary of the conversation this far be?…
1). There is a large number of research papers which tout the benefits of NIR therapy, but very few (if any) which are not performed by researchers directly employed by a company with financial gains from the success of their products (goes to possible bias).
2). There are a large number of “before-after” photos available, but many (virtually all?) may be artifacts of lighting and focus (we need a standard of dermatological photography). Very few (if any?) measure results using the more quantitative visia (spelling) skin/face test that some of you mentioned.
4). However, there are possible pathways why this should work
Was this a fair summary?
Even if I suspend belief that there aren’t satisfactory research papers out there, the equipment choices are confounding: the 660nm + 850nm LED panels are cheap, but not enough power? I’d hesitate to use a laser on myself at home, even with extensive research experience in lasers. People were using light bulbs before this: wouldn’t this suggest the LED panels are fine? And aren’t most cheap LEDs made with a fairly standard outputs so I’d assume most panels are essentially exactly the same? And does it need to be touching your skin/head or a distance away? (I understand the power dissipation but how much power do you want? And can the LEDs really provide so much power that it will damage you?
Finally, this may possibly be much like the ITP studies in which 1+1 does not equal 2, and instead equals -1 for combinations of supplements/drugs/additives: we’ll eventually need to test if this is actually degrading longevity even if you look/feel younger.
I’m likely still game to try.
FWIW
To be redundent, again;
“If you wait until you are ready, it is almost certainly too late.” ~ Seth Godin
Absolutely, in the longevity space. And I’m thinking of trying it although don’t want to do damage if I can help it (the easiest way to stay healthy is to not get sick). But, not to get too personal, I’m 52, not yet taking Rapamycin or anything else beyond GlyNAC (no effect), have a pretty decent athletic/muscular physique I’ve built (hard work in the gym almost every day, and perhaps too hard yesterday), look a good 10 years younger, fit into my clothes from grad school, and feel as good as I did in my late 20’s (where I felt very good). So I’m willing to do things like “build muscle even though it’s not good for longevity” with the thought that I may have some time to go two steps forward over time.
I believe there are studies showing that LEDs are comparable to lasers… as N=1 I can attest to my red light’s efficacy. After 2 plus years of frequent use my eyebrows have regrown, my hands look amazing, and my brown spots are fading. I use the PatinumLed 900 panels.
After 2 years, your brown spots are still there. They didn’t disappear, did they?
A lot of them are gone the darker ones are 3/4 gone…
Thank you, @Pattyg. We greatly appreciated you sharing your n=1 results. So to get these results are you using a 12”x12” 45W 660nm/850nm panel with 112 LEDs of each wavelength arranged in a grid, 6” away from your hands (or wherever your dark spots are/were) and eyebrows with the light generally hitting you straight-on (not at a major angle), for 6x per week at 20 minutes each session (120 minutes per week)? Do you stand facing your unit? Lie down? — I’d very much love to get your specific treatment so we all can compare to others (and the studies) and can decide what equipment may be needed for the impact we may seek.
Also, there is much written in the “studies” (with respect: most I’ve seen appear to have potential financial bias, for what it’s worth) concerning wrinkle decreases, skin roughness decreases, skin thickness decreases, skin rejuvenation, etc,). Have you seen any of these effects? — these are commonly suggested as “typical results”.
Supposedly 850nm will penetrate your skin (again, according to the “studies”, although heat penetrates the skin so there appears to potentially be some Far IR wavelengths that make it through, so why not Near IR) and increase mitochondrial function to provide more energy, soothe muscles, better sleep, less anxiety, better muscle recovery from exercise, and potentially other internal impacts. Have you experienced any of these impacts you have reason to believe is/are from these treatments?
I’m still very much game to try this: it’s cheap, non-invasive, difficult to “overdose”, doesn’t appear to have many negative effects with “overdose”, and if it works could be a positive with at least appearance, if it doesn’t work, I sat under a heating lamp for a month. Plus, I can sit still listening to a podcast for 20min a day. That is, if I can buy a cheap 45W panels and not a $1,200 system… However, I do hope there isn’t a “1+1=-1” impact with something else I’m doing, but until they run this in the ITP we’ll never know (that’s why they call it “bio hacking” and not “science”, and even that isn’t conclusive).
With regards to lasers versus LEDs, if precision and power isn’t required for the “treatment” and the underlying physiological effects are from that specific wavelength of light, LEDs should work fine (assuming the LEDs are as advertised with respect to power and specific wavelength). But I’d assume the “treatment” time (if this has been determined) of a laser would be far shorter than an LED panel (it simply has more power).
FWIW
I started by purchasing a single lamp system {with a holder, tripod and some toys that came with the package] March 10, 2023
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09TDKHXD6?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title&th=1
Then May 22, 2023 I purchased a small panel.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09Z363CSX?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
I place the light source{both] right on top of the area being treated.
I use both, and am thinking of purchasing another.
Looking at this one, as you can control the intensity and has a timer.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0BLH5B1JT?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title&th=1
Did you mean you put it right on your skin or is it hanging above your body/area of treatment?
Right on the skin, right on my head hair {moving the lamp aourd the head.
The panel right on my chest, and pulls tee shit over it.
And on my back the same with the panel.
The lamp/blub or panel on top of skin area being treated.
