I finished my 5-week DAV “therapy”.
Because my biological rhythms, bowel movements, food intake, etc. vary, I now look at the 5-week results and say: Nothing to report. Everything seems normal after 5 weeks. No subjective changes anyway.
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Brilliant reply! Thank you! I am a few days from completing my 5 week DAV. Had a nasty bout of illness two weeks ago, so maybe the clear out. Also kept up my D&Q and Rapa.
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Just a note and a tip for eveyone on the protocol,
The DAV protocol is specifically IV Vitamin C not oral Vitamin C. This is because in low doses and orally vitamin C is an antioxidant while in large IV doses it is a pro-oxidant. The pro-oxidant effect is what eradicates the CSC. Some studies point to the protective effect of antioxidants in the tumor microenviroment so if that’s what your targeting with the DAV combo , I would consider switching to IV and at higher doses.
Hence in regard to your protocol and eradicating CSC, it only works at the high dose IV vitamin C which in the cancer world is 1-2g/kg IVC. This coupled with oral doxy or azithromycin (ideally IV and not oral) has been shown multiple times anectodally and in studies to eradicate CSC.
Best of luck.
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I have a mild URTI right now. If I go to my local doctor, he’ll probably put me on the DAV therapy as a normal procedure.
You can approximate 50g IV Vitamin C (over 24 hours), the usual dosage in cancer studies, with 1 gm Lipo Vit C every 3 hours : In studies (using Livon Brand Lipo Vit C) the blood and tissue concentrations were similar. LivOn Lipo Vit C is around $36 for 30 1gm packets (currently a Bogo sale lowers that to $36 for 60 1gm packets). The Renue ForScience Lipo Vit C (Cellg8 manufactured) probably has similar potency, normally $34.95 for 60 gm, (currently running a 25% Black Friday discount till 11/27 lowers that to $27.20 for 60 gm).
I commend their effort and hope they continue to research this, I just hate “movements” that do not allow people to publish possible negatives of any therapy, it so unpersuasive.
However, DAV decreased median lifespan, and in isolation doxy was much more effective.
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Seems Doxy + Azi is not a winning combo here.
Azithromycin also worked better than the combination except in higher doses.
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How does a 25uM translate in mg?
Thanks for pointing that out, but the authors are trying to patent an oral combo D+A+C.
“Taken together, our evidence supports a novel combined metabolic strategy to better eradicate CSCs. More specifically, we demonstrate that the inhibitory effects of Doxycycline on the CSC population can be potentiated by combination with another FDA-approved antibiotic, Azithromycin, and a dietary supplement, namely Vitamin C (a mild pro-oxidant).”
“all three components of the DAV triple combination of Doxycycline (1 μM), Azithromycin (1 μM) and Vitamin C (250 μM), should be administered at the same time.”
It looks like the combo D+A is 63% as effective as the triple combo.
From the same paper:
“The ascorbate radical is normally very stable, but it becomes more reactive especially in the presence of metal ions, including iron (Fe), allowing the ascorbate radical to become a much more powerful pro-oxidant.”
Maybe we should take an iron supplement along with the protocol to obtain the benefits of oral vitamin C, or not.
Apparently, the authors think the oral vitamin C works because: (They speculate)
“Therefore, we speculate that as mitochondria are particularly rich in iron, they could become a key target of the pro-oxidant effects of Vitamin C, driving mitochondrial oxidative stress and new mitochondrial biogenesis.”
Do you think that the oral vitamin C might work after all and do you have any idea what the oral dose might be?
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Oral Vit C is primarily excreted once the maximum absorbable dose is achieved.
“At doses above 1 g/day, absorption falls to less than 50% and absorbed, unmetabolized ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine”.
As I have been through this with the many cancer clinics in the world due to family members with cancer being treated, I can say without a doubt cancer stem cells are the hardest to kill and I would not come at them with an oral dose.
So I would not have any reccomendation on an oral dose because, even if you take oral vit c every hour to increase plasma concentration you will be excreting it quickly and irritating the gut. I used to believe in liposomal vit c but many cancer clinics had conflicting thoughts on it.
Only way to know if you are really reaching peak plasma levels orally is to measure your plasma, but bloodwork for Vit C is unfortunately not accurate as the Vit C oxidizes when exposed to oxygen, meaning when the blood is drawn the Vit C oxidizes giving false results.
" Serum whole blood are unstable at room temperature, with losses up to 15% and 20% within 2 h. To assess the in vivo vitamin C status, it is crucial to avoid ex vivo artefacts, i.e., the oxidation of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to dehydroascorbic acid (DHA) and subsequent irreversible hydrolysis of DHA to 2,3-diketogulonic acid. For this reason, samples have to be handled quickly after drawing blood to obtain a reliable vitamin C result."
Anyways, there is not even a comparison between IVC and oral Vit C. That is why many cancer clnics only recommend IVC and in high doses.
Keep in mind gut irritation from oral doses, and that you simply cannot reach comparitive peak plasma levels similar to that of 50g - 100g IV doses, to cause the strong pro-oxidant effect that is able to kill CSC (which is from the oxidation of iron creating H2O2 (peroxide) as a byproduct). With IVC, unless you have a G6PD deficiency , you can be certain that you are reaching max plasma levels without doing much harm.
You can get high dose IVC pretty much everywhere in the US as there are a bunch of wellness clinics out there now. It costs anywhere from $200-$400 for IVC in the US in my experience. In the EU it is of course a fraction of that price.
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I have no medical or biology background, so I am picking your mind.
This is a rather long thread so you may have missed my posts and others concerning DAV therapy. There is a patent claiming anti-aging properties, senolytic properties, blah blah blah
Personally, I did the DAV protocol using 1 gram of ascorbyl palmitate.
I did the protocol for its supposed anti-aging properties as I have no cancer that I am aware of.
As a retrospective look after completing the DAV protocol, I noticed no subjective effects. After ~4 weeks, I had pre-scheduled blood work done and everything was normal.
As for the patents:
Apparently, they think ascorbyl palmitate can be used orally.
“ascorbyl palmitate is an ester of ascorbic acid and palmitic acid commonly used in large doses as a fat-soluble Vitamin C source and an antioxidant food additive. Embodiments of the present approach may use ascorbyl palmitate as a pro-oxidant.”
Some other studies think doxycycline and oral vitamin C can be used to treat doxycycline-resistant cancer cells.
“Vitamin C in this context was between 100 to 250 µM, which are within the known achievable blood levels, when Vitamin C is taken orally.”
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In regard to it being a senolytic, I need to do more research. I can only speak on the cancer side of things.
- Side note: I also don’t like how many studies use Vitamin C interchangeably with ascorbic acid (honestly I do it myself for simplicity). Ascorbic Acid is what most “Vit C” supplements and IV’s contain, and they work differently than actual Vitamin C from Camu camu, acerola cherry etc…
Here’s a thread about that: WHAT’S IN YOUR VITAMIN C ? - Liebowitz Longevity Medicine
For example, I take this Vitamin C supplement because it is actual vit c and doesn’t irritate the gut. (Pure Radiance C® Capsules | Natural Vitamin C | Pure Synergy®)
- In the same study you quoted in Oncotarget it says the following which is my point.
" It is worth noting that Vitamin C plasma levels vary considerably with the route of administration. For instance, pharmacokinetic studies performed by different research groups have assessed that, after oral administration, Vitamin C plasma levels reach concentrations of ~70-220 μM [reviewed in reference [30], which represents the maximum tolerated oral dose. By contrast, Padayatty and co-workers found that, compared to oral intake, intravenous administration results in 30- to 70- fold higher plasma concentrations of Vitamin C [31]. Furthermore, consumption of 5 to 9 servings of fruits and vegetables per day allows plasma levels of Vitamin C to reach up to 80 μM at steady-state, with peak values of 220 μM [31]. Remarkably, an **intravenous infusion of Vitamin C can reach plasma levels of 15,000 μM (i.e., 15 mM). Interestingly, doses of up to 50 grams per day, infused slowly, didn’t exhibit any toxic side effects on cancer patients [30]. These observations suggest that intravenous administration of Vitamin C may have a role in cancer treatment, as this route allows higher plasma concentrations than those achievable with the maximum tolerated oral dose."
- To ensure you are getting a pro-oxidant effect IV is always reccomended as we need to be certain we are eradicating CSC and not protecting them. How do you know what your serum peak level when taking oral ascorbic acid and that you reached the max blood concentration? You don’t. But you can bet you reached 30 - 70 times what you could have gotten orally, in an IV.
Plus, there is a line of thought in cancer, that antioxidants support the tumor microenviroment by preventing apoptosis through scavenging free radicals. Let’s say someone was going to do a pro-oxidative treatment (high dose IVC or ozone) or is on some sort of cancer drug (anthracyclins, platinum based drugs etc…), and they decide to supplement with oral ascorbic acid. You are basically negating the effects of the treatment while giving protection to the CSC.
To reach oxidative potential and to ensure that it has reached the CSC and caused maximal death to CSC the dose would need to be high enough. I just have too many concerns with oral ascorbic acid, as it is not even close to effective and potent as IVC.
Anyways, I might’ve not answered your question completely, but in dealing with cancer, cancer cells adapt to whatever you throw at them. The patients usually do not have much time left, so we have to filter and find the most effective options with the least side effects and most comfort otherwise it is just a waste of time. Patients prefer a IV over oral supplementation which inevitably will cause bad diahrrea and stomach upset. Ultimately the decision comes down to multiple factors. One of which is because Vit C serum testing isn’t accurate, economical or practical, we need to be certain we are hitting the CSC.
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Thanks for taking the time to respond.
They said in study 20mg twice a day will work. Worth a try vs 100mg
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Just a quick update on my DAV experiment which is due to finish tomorrow night. On day 2 I had a CBC/FBC (Complete / Full blood count). All was good except my Eosinophils were slightly elevated at 1500 (they should be under 500 and mine were way under this on my last FBC which was 6 months ago). At the time I assumed the elevation was due to having a virus so I then had the test repeated on day 14 of the protocol. I have only just had the results back and the Eosinophils were then sitting at 2500. The original virus was very mild and I was fully recovered within a few days. I am now wondering whether the raised Eosinophils are actually due to either the Doxycycline and / or the Azithromycin. I shall repeat the FBC in around 10 days. I’m travelling at the moment (on a transatlantic cruise with no stops until Florida next Sunday!). And then I’m heading down to Quito so will try getting a FBC done there.
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I just finished my 5-week DAV treatment. Frankly not much to report. Fortunately all rather uneventful. Only some mild stomach issues during the first 7 days. I took daily pre & probiotics in an effort to mitigate any negative impact. Will probably repeat the DAV treatment in about 6 months.
Considering doing a D&Q treatment next month as I believe in the principe of senolytics.
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I took a test approximately 2 weeks in and then another one when I finished the 5 weeks. It was not by design, my testing schedule just happened to work out that way.
I saw no negative effects on my blood work from the DAV protocol.
Your rise in absolute EOSINOPHILS is probably caused by something else.
The number you cite must be absolute eosinophils because most labs use percentages for eosinophils.
In any case, mine went down from 2.4% to 1.3%
Absolute eosinophils went down from 204 cells/uL to 107 cells/uL.
“Eosinophils, sometimes called eosinophils or, less commonly, acidophils, are a variety of white blood cells and one of the immune system components responsible for combating multicellular parasites and certain infections in vertebrates”
I don’t pay too much attention to this one test as long as it is in the normal range because the measurement varies widely from test to test. The body is quite often fighting some infections like tooth decay, wound healing, insect bites, etc.
I would expect the DAV therapy to lower the eosinophils count.
Do any others completing the DAV therapy have any blood work results to share?
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I’m awaiting my lab results that were drawn 12/1/23. Unfortunately I became symptomatic for covid on 11/17/23 and tested positive on 11/20 basically right around the time I finished DAV so I had to delay my blood work. It’s probably not going to be worth much but I really wanted to specifically see my lipid panel, HbA1c and insulin so I went ahead and got the all the labs done that I normally check. I’m planning to do DAV again in October of ‘24 so I’ll do a pre and post next time around.
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Yes, my Eosinophil counts mentioned are absolute numbers rather than percentages. At the end of the DAV protocol I went down with another virus, probably as a result of taking Rapamycin while still on a cruise. Rookie mistake I suppose! Again it was quite mild but the snotty nose is still hanging around so I haven’t bothered getting another full blood count yet. I’m also in the Galapagos Islands now for a month so I’m not sure how easy it will be to get a blood test done anyway.
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