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@Josh
If itās approved by Consumer Labs, then it probably isnāt dangerous to take, especially at sub-milligram doses. But not all lithium salts are equal. Lithium chloride is more similar to lithium carbonate, the standard treatment for mood disorders, than it is to lithium orotate. Unlike lithium carbonate, however, lithium chloride is hygroscopic, which means that it absorbs water from the atmosphere. This may reduce its effectiveness over time.
Proponents of lithium orotate, including posters on this forum, say that it more readily crosses the blood brain barrier than either lithium carbonate or lithium chloride. It thus achieves a greater concentration at lower doses, a critical safety factor.
This paper makes a comparison of all the lithium salt formulations.
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What about lithium gluconate and lithium citrate? Gluconate is not mentioned in the paper and citrate just quickly discussed. They are the only lithium supplements sold in France (and maybe in the whole Europe, excluding US imports).
Are not all lithium salt supposed to act the same in the body? Why lithium orotate would pass the blood brain barrier easier than lithium citrate ? When dissolved it gives a lithium ion whatever the salt. It gives also orotic acid or citric acid, but why does that change its properties? I though only the absorption by the gut would change something between the different forms
Thanks!
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@adssx
I coudnāt find much on the gluconate, except that it was registered in France in 1961. It is still used topically to treat dermatitis. The citrate, though, has an interesting history. Up until 1948, it was an ingredient in 7-Up, which no doubt made it more refreshing. This Wikipedia article has a list of references for further reading.
Yes this NYT piece says: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/magazine/i-dont-believe-in-god-but-i-believe-in-lithium.html
Lithium gluconate was approved in France in 1961, lithium carbonate in Britain in 1966, lithium acetate in Germany in 1967 and lithium glutamate in Italy in 1970.
Itās only later that it was approved in the US. So for whatever reason each country sells a different form of lithium. I assume French brains differ significantly from German ones, requiring a different form of lithium depending on which side of the Rhine you live in.
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No question. A lifetime of eating Bratwurst would result in a different brain than a lifetime of eating truffles.
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I excerpted this paragraph from the paper posted above.
Proposed mechanisms underlying the efficacy of orotic acid as a mineral carrier. (a) Mineral orotates may display limited dissociation in biological solutions, allowing them to exist in sera as nonādissociated, electrically neutral compounds. (b) It has been suggested that LiOr preferentially dissociates in the intracellular compartment, perhaps through mechanisms involving the uptake of orotic acid into the de novo pyrimidine synthesis pathway. (c) Given its structural similarity to nonācharged pyrimidines, LiOr may be able to make use of nucleotide transporters for passage across cell membranes, as is observed for nonācharged pyrimidines such as fluorouracil.
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@Jonas
The benefits that interest me are an improvement in mood and perhaps an increase in energy. Not that my mood is grim, but Iām always looking for a little buzz. The orotate may also have anti-inflammatory effects on the brain, which is a good place to have such effects. Lastly, it is thought to have reno-protective properties. This last is most intriguing to me.
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I think itās worth clarifying a couple of points Iāve seen stated here:
- The form of the lithium can affect how/where the lithium is delivered to the body. Lithium orotate, for example, may be more bioavailable, and it may result in more lithium getting into the brain as opposed to other tissues. However, once the lithium gets where itās going, the anion it was attached to isnāt relevant anymore; itās a free cation, or itās associated with some substrate aside from the one it came in with.
- I think itās a bit of a stretch to say that, for life extension purposes, orotate is better, because youāre making an assumption about where it needs to go. Is it specifically the brain? Or do you want it inhibiting GSK3 everywhere? The paper comparing lithium salts does say lithium orotate has fewer side effects, but remember this is in the context of getting enough lithium into the brain to have a psychiatric effect (orders of magnitude higher dose).
- Lithium chloride being used to make automotive parts doesnāt have anything to do with safety. Water is used to make automotive parts, too.
- Lithium chloride being hygroscopic just means that if you had it as a powder, it would absorb some water from the air. The lithium does not disappear or become anything but lithium (conservation of mass). Many salts, including NaCl are hygroscopic to some degree (ever shake salt out over a boiling pot and have it get clumpy?). And in the case of the ionic drops product, hygroscopy is not relevant at all, especially at that concentration.
TL:DR; I think a lot of folks here are in general overthinking the importance of the form of the lithium, and in particular, I donāt think we have enough information to suggest that taking LiCl is any less reasonable than taking any of the other common salts.
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Does anyone have access to this paper? https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cnsnddt/2019/00000018/00000010/art00006
It looks like the only recent one looking at all forms.
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When I first started on this forum, I was curious (like a lot of us) to see what supplements others were taking. I was familiar with a lot of them but I kept seeing lithium on an awful lot of lists. I thought, lithium? whatās that? But soon enough, I was trying it outā¦and sure enough, it does make you feel happy (even at the RDA here of 5 mg every other day, which is what I take). But now, all of sudden, when people here are asking āWhat are your top 10 supplements?ā or āWhatās the one supplement you couldnāt do without?ā, I want to blurt out āLithium! Itās the best!ā. It just occurred to meā¦thatās why this forum reminds me of a mental hospitalā¦thereās lithium all over the place!
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If you angiotensin receptor blockers, you might want to be careful about lithium dosage apparently:
Telmisartan-induced lithium intoxication in a patient with schizoaffective disorder
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2011.02305.x
Lithium LevelsāWhat Increases and Decreases Them?
- Angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors (eg, lisinopril, enalapril) can induce up to a 400% increase over several weeks.
- Angiotensin II inhibitors (eg, losartan, valsartan) probably prompt similar effects to ACE inhibitors.
Is anyone taking both? If so, do you adjust the dosage and/or monitor the levels?
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I couldnāt find free access from my usual alternate sources, but I did find a relatively recent paper that has a history of lithium therapy:
āTHE HISTORY OF LITHIUM SALTS AND THEIR USESā
and does look at the various salts including lithium orotate and their comparative benefits.
Lithium orotate: A superior option for lithium therapy?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/brb3.2262
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We discussed this 2 weeks ago: Lithium Supplementation - #88 by adssx
However we didnāt have data back then. The potential 400% increase is massive! Indeed the best way is to measure lithium levels. (Poke @John_Hemming)
If you take lithium orotate in the normal supplement range of 1-20mg a 400% increase would probably be negligible as the prescribed therapeutic range Li2CO3 is typically delivered multiple times per day in the form of 150ā600 mg tablets. The dose is titrated until consistent serum lithium levels of 0.6ā1.2 mEq/L are reached; serum Li+
As a little tidbit from the article: ālithium rescues the expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF)ā. Of course the study was with lithium carbonate, but then again studies show lithium orotate form of lithium is thought to cross the blood-brain barrier more easily than other forms of lithium.
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If 400% is the average, I wonder what the distribution looks like. If 10% of people experience a 4,000% increase, itād be a different story.
I also wonder how much this depends on the duration of supplementation. In other words, how much does accumulation differ between one month and 10 years?
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FWIW:
I have been taking lithium orotate for decades in a dose range of 5 -20mg/day.
I have been taking telmisartan for ~ 1 year. I have noticed no measurable or subjective ill effects.
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Iām in a similar position. I had been taking only 5 Mg Li-orotate/week. Just increased it to 5 Mg 3x weekly. I also take Captopril 25mg/day to keep down Ang II levels. I will be getting my blood Li level checked in May. If itās too high Iāll drop my Li dose down again.
TBH I think the caution about ACE inhibitors and ARB and Li are pertinent for patients on high doses of Li for psychiatric disorders.
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What do you think is too high and why?
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